Ben Stuart on Christian Dating, Boundaries, and God’s Will for Your Relationship

Austin Huang:
Relationships are one of the biggest topics that young adults wrestle with right now. Everyone wants clarity on dating, boundaries, breakups, emotional attachment, and what it actually looks like to pursue someone with Christ at the center. The culture gives us one message, the church, another, and most people feel caught in between. So how do young adults build healthy relationships that honor God, guard their hearts, and set them up for a future that’s actually life giving?

David Platt:
So good. And to talk about that, Ben Stuart.

Ben Stuart:
Hey.

David Platt:
Man, let’s go. I’m genuinely just so thankful for you, bro.

Ben Stuart:
Thanks.

David Platt:
So Ben and I have both been in… He’s in DC, in Metro DC for almost the exact same period of time, around eight years. And I mean, I knew about you through Breakaway, through just preaching ministry, through writing. I’m just really thankful for your friendship to me, you and Donna, to Heather and me, to my family, as my kids have met you. And man, I tell people all the time whenever your name comes up, “I love him as a brother,” and genuinely you’re one of my favorite preachers.

Ben Stuart:
Oh, man.

David Platt:
Teachers of God’s word. Because you’re always… It’s such this masterful blend. And I don’t use that word lightly. By God’s grace, blend of faithfulness to God’s word and teaching, like exposing what God’s word is saying with helpful illustration and super practical application. The way you bring all that together is just every time I’ve heard you, I’m like, “Yes.” So grateful. I’ve got an email in my inbox right now, chairman of our elders like, “Hey, you guys got to listen to this Ben Stuart sermon from Ecclesiastes.”

Ben Stuart:
No way. That’s cool.

David Platt:
So yeah, anyway, just thankful for you, bro. Yes, in so many different ways.

Ben Stuart:
Same. I could do the exact same. We were just talking about, if I can say this, just I loved having you come out. And when we did a leadership development for our people, I’m like, well, I want them to hear from you. I think God’s been gracious to let us pastor in the same area and be friends. I think that there’s power to that. Jesus said that, when people see unity, it legitimizes the gospel. People believe the Father sent His son. And I love that we didn’t have to force being friends. God’s just like, “No, we’ll make this work.”

David Platt:
Yes, yes.

Ben Stuart:
It’s good.

David Platt:
Well, speaking of friends, not that we are dating, Single… But relationships.

Austin Huang:
Let’s go.

David Platt:
Single, Dating, Engaged, Married. This is like the new version. When did the revised version come out, the revised for this book?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah. I think beginning of this year.

David Platt:
Okay. All right. So the first one is like 2017, I think. So almost 10 years ago.

Ben Stuart:
Yes. Right when I was moving up here, I thought it was kind of my swan song to college students because I spent a decade living at that intersection while technology shifted, watching it complicate this path of pairing off that people do. And it was birthed out of that pastoral burden of like, “I’m watching young people I love struggle and I want to try to be helpful.” And then moved up here, having no idea how young and how single DC is. And actually one of the first sermons I ever gave, I was invited to the Capitol because they’re like, “We have so many people that their relationships are a mess.” And I’m like, “Well, this is not the way I thought I would get into this space, but here we go.” So it’s a need that spans the country, spans age groups now, but I never set out, “I want to be the dating guy,” but I’ve loved being able to help people navigate a really complex sea of relationships.

David Platt:
Yeah. Well, I know we got all kinds of questions we’re going to dive into. I want to ask you just on a personal little background, you and Donna, how did you ask Donna out? That’s what I want to know.

Ben Stuart:
Great question.

David Platt:
And how old were you?

Ben Stuart:
At the time, I was maybe 25.

David Platt:
Okay. All right.

Ben Stuart:
I’m not good at precise dates, but It was around then.

David Platt:
Approximately.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah. At the time, so I was the last of my friends to get married. We didn’t get married until later. But I was the last of my friends to get married. So I was in a season where doing ministry, happily single at a church. Donna and I actually didn’t go to the same church, but we were in the matrix of ministry. There was young people wanting to just pursue Jesus and help other people. And there were churches that would do events together. So it was one of the first times I was ever asked to speak somewhere. I brought some kids from my youth group and she was a part of another youth group. And she was leading worship and I was teaching. And we did it in a way that I would hope many, many would, that our friendship groups had some overlap. So then we would all go out together. And you could have a wide conversation and then a sidebar one and getting to know her.
So it started with kind of a group, went to a movie. And I just made sure the seat next to me was free. Chris sat down and I was like, “Keep it empty for me.” So her and I went to a movie together, but I didn’t ask her, but we had a good time. Then so after that, I had a New Year’s party I was invited to, so it created this great in. I was like, “Hey, I’ve been invited to this New Year’s party. I need a date. Would you go with me?” And I wanted to make sure I used the word date so she knew what this was, had her dress, knew what I was asking her to. This wasn’t a hang with the buddies. This was, “I am asking you to be my date to something.” So that was our first kind of run in.

David Platt:
Very good.

Austin Huang:
Cool.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah.

David Platt:
And then it was smooth from there on… I mean, I say smooth. Did y’all break up along the way? How long did you date?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, yeah. We didn’t break up, but right when we were dating, I actually didn’t want to date because I knew, I’m about to leave to go to seminary.” I was looking at seminaries all over the country. I was like, “The one thing I’m sure of is that I’m leaving. This is the wrong time to date somebody. But I have to be honest about the fact that I’m attracted to this person and I just can’t make the math math. But I’m trying to just be faithful in the midst of the ambiguity.” So I was honest with her about all that and looking at seminaries and whatever. And we were dating.
So we hit this summer where I was like, “I just don’t know where my life’s going, but I know I’m built to preach God’s word and I need to study it better. So I’m going to a school to learn hell and I don’t know what that means for us.” And her band at that point was traveling the country too. So I was like, “You’re going to be in a van across America. I’m going to be handing off a youth ministry and starting a seminary.” I said, “Let’s take this summer and just write notes to each other, letters.” And then as soon as I said that, I was like one for one because I got nervous that she would write like 10 and then I’d feel overwhelmed and that’s my personality. And I said, “We’re both trying to discern faithfulness to a calling, interest in a person. How do these connect?” So we wrote letters.
And for me, I don’t advocate that for everybody. I had someone come to me once and go, “So when do we start the letter stage?” I’m like, “It’s not a stage.” It was a necessity because Ben’s a slow processor that was unsure of my feelings. And so what I got to experience that summer was that I missed her and I needed to feel that, that desire for this to work. So it wasn’t this dramatic breakup, but it was sort of we slowed the evaluation process because I needed time. And then when we came back, it was two months, “Hey, this is this block.” And when I came back, it was like, “I would really like to figure this out. ”

David Platt:
It’s good.

Ben Stuart:
And so began in earnest.

David Platt:
“Oh, yeah, we’re good.”

Ben Stuart:
Yeah.

Austin Huang:
I just love that it started with friendship. That’s the one thing, I told you before we started rolling, I’m not an avid reader, I don’t read a lot of books, but I read that in college, the first version. I need to read the second one. But I am married now, so it worked, I guess.

Ben Stuart:
Hey.

David Platt:
Cause, effect. Read this book.

Austin Huang:
I actually have a friend who I gave him my copy. He read the first chapter or something, then he lost it, and he’s not married.

Ben Stuart:
Wow.

Austin Huang:
But anyway, I loved what you put, and you can clarify if I misspeak, but it’s like two of you are running after Jesus together, and then one day He turns your head and there’s your partner. Is that what it was?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, because that’s what helped me. I graduated college and in the era I was in college, there was this a lot of pressure of like, “Have you met the one yet?” And it’s a little less that now, but I realized, “Hey, I’m leaving college not dating anybody.” So I went on this journey personally of like, “What is my singleness for?” Because I realized God doesn’t owe me a… I don’t have that over Him like, “God, you owe me a spouse.” He doesn’t owe me anything.

David Platt:
That’s right.

Ben Stuart:
And so I’m like, “Well then what am I doing here?” And if marriage is the goal, then Jesus and the Apostle Paul were failures and I don’t think that’s right. So what is the goal? And I think reading Paul, 1 Corinthians 7 where he says, when he’s advocating singleness and says, “I want to secure what’s appropriate and secure an undistracted devotion to the Lord.” That was massive for me. I remember where I was sitting in my little gross apartment and trying to figure out my life as a 23-year-old and I was like, “That’s what I exist for. I am devoted to Him. I don’t fully know what that means career wise. I don’t know what that means relationship wise, but I know I’m His and I want to get great at chasing Him.” And so I just locked in on that.
And I believed when you do that, you go, “I’m chasing Him,” and it eliminates a lot of the dating pool. If you’re chasing something else, I’m going this way. But like David with Jonathan became buddies, David’s like, “I’m going hard for the Lord,” and then suddenly there’s your best friend because you have the same cause, those are the strongest communities, :We’re chasing the same thing.” And I wanted that to be true dating wise. I asked the Lord for that. “Would you help me meet her on the mission field?” And for us, the mission field happened to be youth ministry in the woodlands and like, “Good enough. Checks out. Let’s go.”

Austin Huang:
“Let’s go.”

Ben Stuart:
But I wanted a girl that was chasing the Lord. So I think getting in a community, they go, “We’re running in a pack after a cause worthy of our life,” then yeah, hopefully one of those people are cute and you go, “Why don’t you and I do this until death do us part?”

David Platt:
There you go. That’s so good because I think we can get it backwards like, “I really want a wife,” and as if that is the goal as opposed to, “I really want Jesus.” But it’s so key because if I really want Jesus as the goal, then singleness is a gift and marriage is a gift because both lead to… I mean, that’s 1 Corinthians 7, right? They’re both good gifts from God.
I was actually preaching on this the other day and I was like, “Yeah, it’s like the Commanders, they beat the Eagles, that’s a gift. They beat the Cowboys, it’s a gift. They’re both good gifts.” Or, yeah, I don’t know, if the Wizards beat anybody in Washington, that’s a good gift. But anyway, the reality, they really are good gifts if Jesus is the goal. But if one of those is the goal, then the other is not a gift, which is really, I think, pretty key to be able to thrive in both singleness and marriage.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah.

Austin Huang:
Yeah. And I know you referenced David and Jonathan, but I guess we don’t really see dating relationships in the Bible. So how do we, as young adults or anybody in the dating pool, how do we see God’s purpose for dating in the 21st century?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, yeah, dating is not in the Bible, but dating is our modern version of what? I tell people dating is not a status to sit in, it’s a process to move through. And you go, “It’s a process of evaluation.” And what are you evaluating? You’re evaluating, “Is this a person I want to run with for the rest of my life?” It’s been interesting to watch lately in the modern culture people stumbling backwards into the structures that Christianity provides that lead to human flourishing. Louise Perry’s book, I think is so important, The Case Against the Sexual Revolution. She’s looking at that and saying, “Hey, this idea of, ‘Let’s remove sex from the confines of marriage or any kind of meaning or even emotional attachment,’ now we have the data that actually didn’t create more sex, now there’s less and less meaning and less love.”
So at the end of her book, she’s like, “I think the best way to flourish as a human being is you want someone who commits to love all of you, love your heart and your body and your mind, care about you and you need to wait until you’re sure they do and you need to make some commitment to each other.” And she’s just falling backwards and Ephesians 5 of like, yeah, marriage is a beautiful gift from God where you are safe emotionally and committed together unconditionally and then in that place can flourish as a relationship. So you go, “Yeah, that’s what you want.” And dating’s the evaluation process to go, “Is that the person I’m meant to link up with then?”
So dating’s the modern version. We can talk about the history of dating, how it came about and the mess associated with some of that. But the Bible does have a lot to say about evaluation. So that’s where it helps you. You look at Proverbs, “It’s better to live on the corner of a roof than in a house with a quarrelsome wife,” that’s not written to the married guy, sitting on the corner of his roof going like, “I’ve made a huge mistake.” That’s written to the single guy saying, “Watch that girl. Watch her. If she’s always got drama and fight and mad at somebody, your home won’t be peaceful either.” “The words of the rash are like a thrust of a sword,” that’s written to the young person saying, “Hey, does he cut you with his words? Does he hurt you? When you leave, after spending a month with him, do you feel beaten up? Well, don’t sign on until death do us part.” So the Bible has much to say about evaluating the kind of person you want to marry. And so that’s where I think the Bible really does help us with dating.

David Platt:
Man, I just want to put an exclamation point on that. Yes, to read this book and even more important, Proverbs. I mean, because Proverbs really… Yeah, I mean, so much of it is written to a younger man trying to, yes, gain wisdom for all of life, including so much in relationships. There’s so much in Proverbs. It’s like when you’re going through that process, you need Proverbs. We all need Proverbs on a continual basis, but particularly in the dating process, not be conformed to the pattern of this world would be transformed in the renewing of our minds by Proverbs specifically. What a huge gift God’s given to us in dating.

Ben Stuart:
100%. Yes, totally.

Austin Huang:
Do you believe there’s such a thing as the one? I know you kind of talked about it earlier. From my perspective, I find no biblical basis for there being one person created just for you. The way I think about it’s like, well, that would devalue their inherent worth. They were created for God, not for you. God, yes, in His sovereignty knows that you guys will maybe end up together, but is the one a damaging concept for young adults?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, I always say to my guys, the most important question to ask in any conversation, I used to say in any theological conversation, now it’s any conversation, is when you say those words, what do you mean? Because the meaning can change. So when someone says the one, what do you mean? Do you mean someone that’s going to fill every vacancy and actualize all your potential? That’s too much weight to put on another human. Do you mean the one like there’s one true love in the world and you got to find them? And if you don’t find them, you’re like, “Oh, you all missed each other so close. Your flight got delayed and now you’ll be alone.” I don’t think God’s cruel that way.
Do I think God works all things according to the council of His will? Yes. Or do I think he led Donna and I together in the same way He marched Eve over to Adam? Yeah, I actually do believe that. But Elizabeth Elliot followed the Lord her whole life and Jim Elliot was killed and she remarried and then her husband died and she remarried. So you go, God didn’t give her the one, He gave her the three. And she never sinned in that. So you go, “Hey, man…” So I just think you have to take the pressure off, “I got to find that one person.” You got to go, “I got to trust the Lord. He will not reveal to me all of His plans. He won’t. But He reveals to me the kind of person I’m meant to be and some of the key ways to get there. And I trust Him to help me navigate towards someone who would be a great candidate to be a husband or a wife.” And He does do that and He’s good. And sovereignty’s often seen in the rear view.

David Platt:
Yes, yes. And I actually missed that flight for a reason or caught that flight for a reason. Yes, the Lord was directing in all… Yes, and it is. It’s beautiful to look back and see God’s-

Ben Stuart:
So are you going to tell us how y’all met too? Can you do yours? Did you quote Romans to her? How’d you do it, David? How’d you get her?

David Platt:
No, although if she was here… It’s funny you say that. So she came, she was invited, Heather was invited to summer camp by her friend. So she was about to be a senior in high school, I was about to be a junior in high school.

Ben Stuart:
Oh, gosh.

David Platt:
And I was super awkward around girls, nervous to talk to girls. So yes, she came and apparently she was trying to get my attention, but it just feels awkward to say, it’s less awkward when she shares it. But yeah, that was when I really was starting to memorize portions of scripture. I was over in the corner memorizing 2 Timothy and she’s trying to impress me, get my attention. But I’m so Locked in. But one way we would be locked in, another way would just be ignorant, “Come on, man. You’ve got a sweet, beautiful girl who’s trying to get your attention. The Lord can lift your eyes from here to look here too.”

Austin Huang:
It’s so funny.

David Platt:
Anyway, but then finally word got around, “Hey, if you ask her out, she’s going to say yes. She likes you.” So we’re hanging out in a group and I see her walk into a room alone. So I followed in there and first girl I ever dated. So I just looked at her and I was like, “Hey, what are you doing Friday night?” And she’s like, “I’m not doing anything.” And I knew this. It was all orchestrated by our friend group. And so I was like, “Well, you want to go on a date with me? ” She was like, “Sure.” And I immediately walked out. I was like, “Thank you. All right. We’re gone.” I didn’t want to mess it up. I had achieved my goal. “This is awkward. I’m with a girl alone, so I got to get back.” So anyway, yeah, that was our first date. And then we went through some rocky times though. I mean, if she were hear, she would tell that I broke up with her on the day her grandmother died.

Austin Huang:
Oh my God.

David Platt:
So I was pretty dumb.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah.

David Platt:
So thankfully, we just celebrated, it was actually just a few days ago, we celebrated 30th anniversary of having a define the relationship conversation, asked her all that when we got back together-

Ben Stuart:
Oh, wow. Okay. Remember the date on that one?

David Platt:
Yeah. Oh, it was at a Waffle House. One night, we defined it and we’ve been together since then.

Ben Stuart:
Come on. You know what I love about that, man? It’s a couple things. One, historically, the community has always been helpful in the evaluation process and we need it. And that’s looked different at different times. No process has been perfect. Arranged marriages was a big part of that. But even in Genesis, when you see them arranging the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah, Rebekah has a voice in that going on. But you look all through scripture and through history, godly communities have helped you evaluate, Song of Solomon, “Rightly do the maidens love you.” She’s infatuated, “Let him kiss me with the kiss of his mouth.” And her friends are going, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s make sure the character matches, that he’s the right person for you to care about.”

David Platt:
So good.

Ben Stuart:
So having y’all’s friends evaluate. I asked some people, several of Donna and I’s first dates, I strategically placed people around us that I trusted because I was like, “I don’t trust myself.” Growing up in a divorced home, I’m like, “I don’t know what healthy looks like. Do you know what I mean? Honest. And can you just help me? Can you just tell me what you see? Am I good or am I not?” And I needed that help.

David Platt:
So good.

Ben Stuart:
And I did think initiation. I think it’s interesting. I don’t know if you read Jean Twenge’s book on Generations. I think her statistical data’s fantastic, but one of the things she points out is one of the challenges of young people today is a serious sense of the loss of agency, that it’s pervasive in the culture today that a lot of young people sort of have the… Because it’s reinforced in the media of, “Life’s sort of happening to you and what you do really can’t affect change.” And Ecclesiastes will say, “Yeah, much of life’s happening to you and you can’t control it, but that does not rob you of agency. You are meant to act.” And I like that you go, “Okay, I’m going to do this all wrong and fumble.” Yeah, it makes a good story later. Of course you don’t know how to do it. But the fact that you’re like, “But I’m going to initiate.” That’s a thing that I don’t ever want to shame young men for not doing, but I want to encourage them to do.
Because you’re probably the same. We have a church filled with a bunch of lovely young women who’ve maybe been asked out once or twice and there’s complexity to that for both sides. It’s hard. The modern culture has made that hard. But I want to help as a pastor, to the degree that I’m able, without making it weird, I want to help create a culture where we help people pair off in a healthy way.

David Platt:
When you think about the challenges that maybe are present now that would be different from potentially 15 years ago, and how do we walk through those challenges? Or what are some of the top things that come to your mind when you think about dating today and practical encouragement you give to people as you’re shepherding them?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, I try to comfort young people in that there’s a couple things that have changed the way dating works today. We could talk about technology and we could talk about philosophy and they connect together. On the technology side, the massive increase of an online world has just ramped up so exponentially fast in their lifetime. So I tell young people that all the time, “This is not your fault. You didn’t create these phones, you didn’t put them in your own hands. But it is your problem. Every generation has this challenge, this is yours.” And one of the challenges that this rush of technology has created is less socializing.
So if you just look at the data, people are more time on their phones or on various things online and there’s just less time hanging out with friends. Less time socializing with friends has led to less dates, led to less marriages, and now led to decreased birth rates. That is a real trend line. So as a church, we’re trying to promote a lot of socialization, just hanging out with people. Phones down, live your life. It’s your life. I heard a young woman say it the other day, and it was so tragic, she said, “When I look back on my young life, I spent my life watching other people’s life on a little screen.” And she said that with a real regret. And I’m like, “That’s a terrible thing to say.” So trying to help people enjoy their life and meet the people around them.
The other thing is a loss of dating scripts. As flawed as they were in the past, there were some dating scripts you kind of knew to follow. I mean, you go all the way back to arranged marriages, the parents came and said, “We think we should put them together.” And then they would sit the kids down in front of each other as the parents. And you’re like, “Well, this is horrible, but at least we all know what this is. ”

David Platt:
Yeah, yeah, there’s a script.

Ben Stuart:
Later, it was the gentleman comes a calling and sits in the parlor. If you look throughout different times in history, there wasn’t a sense… There’s a dance every Friday night in town and you have to bring a date. So we know what he’s asking you to do. He’s not asking you to have sex. He’s not asking you to just hang with his buddies. Whereas now, with all those dating scripts taken away, and they were never perfect, now when a guy asks a girl to hang out, she doesn’t know. Sex has been divorced from relationship. What is he expecting at the end of this? So the liberation of sex from marriage has actually led not to more sex, but to less dates because a lot of young women are going, “I don’t know what he wants.”
Or, “Are we just hanging out with his buddies? Or is this a date? What is this?” So the confusion is difficult for people. And how do I clarify to you what I mean or what my expectations are? So I think it is incumbent on young men primarily right now to just be clear on what I mean. You used to be able to sort of fall back on the culture to like, we all know what this is. Now we all don’t.

David Platt:
Yeah, that’s good.

Austin Huang:
How do young men get that clarity back? What are some of your thoughts, encouragements to them to say, “Hey, if there are statistically more young women in these young adult groups and they’re single and you also are single and you do desire marriage, and maybe you have a healthy understanding of what it looks like, how do you encourage them to just take that next step?”

Ben Stuart:
Yeah. Well, let me not get too theological up front, but I’ll go fast. If you look at Genesis 1, it’s chaos. It’s chaos, right? The chaos, water and darkness. And then God exerts Himself on the chaos and He creates structure in the first three days, sea, air and land. And then He fills those structures in the next three days, right? Birds, fish, animals. He creates structure for the flourishing of life. And then in Genesis 2, He creates the man and says, “Do that. Cultivate the garden.” What does cultivate? Create an environment where these plants can reach their full potential. He says, “That’s the job of man. Create a structure where life flourishes.”
So I encourage young men in a lot of ways you go, how would that work out? We can talk about you as a person. How do you organize your schedule so that you are flourishing as a human being? But I think all young men, whatever place they’re in the world, need to think that way. Okay, when I show up my Church, I’m going to help create an environment where everybody’s winning. So what does that look like? What do you need here? Can I help carry heavy things? Can I help serve in the youth ministry? Can I help do that? I am a moral and physical agent in the world. And what I found really healthy men do is they help create healthy social environments in their cities and in their churches, in their towns where they don’t go like, “Well, there’s no cool people here.” I bet there are, but you got to go, son. And so you create an environment where the socialization can happen, that doesn’t have all the pressure of, “You and I isolate and you get in my car and you don’t know me.” That’s scary for her.
But now you’re in a social matrix that you’ve helped create and maintain and cultivate where you’re getting to know these girls. And you have friends coming to you and saying, “Hey, she’s pretty awesome. Hey, he’s pretty cool. Hey, you should ask her out. Hey, I told her you’re interested.” “You did what?” “Hey man, it’s fine. It’s good.| You’re like, “Oh God.” But now you’re in this social structure where that’s possible. And then I think I take Ephesians, “Speaking in the truth and love, well and all things grow into the head.” I’m going to speak, I’m going to use words, I’m going to say what’s true and I’m going to do it in love. I’m going to care about you. And as a function of caring about you, I’m going to just be real clear. And for me, I got to watch in my young life a lot of girls feel that anxiety of lack of clarity. And I realized that’s unkind.

Austin Huang:
Yeah.

Ben Stuart:
If I’m loving, if I want to help create a social environment where other people win, I don’t need to torture women with ambiguity. Clarity is kindness. So let me be clear. And so with Donna, that’s where I was like, I wanted to say, “Hey, a group of us are hanging out. Would you like to go?” This isn’t a date. And then, “Hey, I’ve got this event and I need a date. Would you be my date?” I wanted to say that.
So then the next time I asked her out, I said, “Hey, would you be interested in going to a play with me in town? There’s a play I want to see in town. Would you be interested in going?” And I wanted her to know, it’s like, “This is just you and me. This is something else.” And then after about three or four of those, she’s wondering, “What is this?” And I just realized there’s no cultural script to fall back on. I have to say. “Hey, I want you to know I’ve really enjoyed spending time with you and I would like to keep doing that. I’m not trying to get married tomorrow, but I’m not just playing games either. I would like us to keep getting to know each other. And so I’ll initiate that. If you’re comfortable with that, I’d love to call you.” I would tell her what the next step was so she wouldn’t go home wondering, “Should I text him? Should I call?” I was like, “I’ll call you.”
And I said, “But if any point you feel uncomfortable, you let me know because I trust God with my life and yours. I’m just enjoying getting to know you and would like to continue to do that.” And about every third time we’d hang out, I just wanted to give her that level of clarity. And as we progressed towards marriage, she told me, “I just always knew where I stood. I always knew where we were at.”

Austin Huang:
That’s good.

Ben Stuart:
And you can say it’s not fair that you have to do that, but we do.

David Platt:
Yeah. That’s really good, man. I’m sitting here thinking if Heather was here, she’d be jumping in and being like, “I would’ve liked that clarity too, would’ve been helpful.” So I think that is a gift that… She would immediately start telling about one day we’re taking a walk and we’ve been dating for three years and I just told her, I was like, “I just don’t know if I’m called to be married or called to be single.” And she’s like, “Well, that’d be helpful piece of information.”

Austin Huang:
“What are you doing?”

David Platt:
Like, “What am I doing here if you’re called to be single?” So anyway, I think that yes, clarity like that is kindness. That’s really good. And I just love the intentionality to say, “Hey, yes, this is a process, moving through with a goal in mind, with Jesus is the goal. But potentially, if He leads us to this. But I want to make sure we know what we’re doing together here, what we’re discerning together here.” So then my question that I know a ton of people will ask is, okay, well, how do you know when it’s time to ask her to marry you?

Ben Stuart:
Oh yeah, yeah.

David Platt:
What’s the… I don’t want to use the term, “How do you know she’s the one?” But yes, in that sense-

Austin Huang:
Discerning.

David Platt:
What I mean is, yes, how do you know that God is calling you to marry this person? Whether God’s calling a man to ask her or just woman to say yes, how do you decide?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, a couple things. One, I would say when you’re looking at the person, I try to say, and we’ve talked about this, so I won’t belabor it now, but the first criteria is cause. What are you chasing in life? What is your ultimate cause that wakes you up every day that excites you? And if they’re not saying, “I exist by Him and for Him,” then you’re running different directions. If you’re saying, “I exist to honor Jesus,” and you go, “Oh, this guy’s so cute, funny, smart, he makes me feel special, but he has sense to the existence of a deity, that counts right?” You’re like, “No,” because at the end of the day-

David Platt:
Or even, “He calls himself a Christian.”

Ben Stuart:
Yeah. You go, “But what’s he chasing?” Because if you hear the majority of divorces, what do they say? “Our lives went different directions.” They’re not talking about careers there. They’re talking about major value systems, right? What I think is ultimately valuable, I will value. My values shape my choices and my choices shape my life. So you really got to watch, you go, what does that person treasure? And if you both treasure Jesus, strong start. So if you got the same cause, we’re running the same direction. Then I look at godly character, do you not have to say you’re a Christian, but are you being shaped into His image? You’re not perfect, but I can see God’s working on you, and you can apologize when you’ve done wrong. I see a character that I can trust because you’re going to want that.
And marriage is risk. This Person can hurt you. So you want to see, “Is God shaping their character so I trust them as I start to hand them all the vulnerabilities of my heart and my story and my body and my life?” And then I think the last on that is chemistry. “Do you make me laugh? Are you funny? I find you cute.” People tend to move that to the top, and I don’t think it’s nothing. It’s interesting the Bible will point out that Rebekah was attractive. You go, “Why is that in there?” Because that has some value. It’s not the ultimate value, but it’s not nothing.
I kind of put it in that order. “So what am I looking for? What’s their cause? Do they have a God-shaped character? And then do we have a chemistry?” And by that I mean just like, “Can we talk?” So I think that matters in terms of the person. When you’re talking about evaluation, I think you do need, “Can we resolve conflict? What happens when we do disagree? Are we capable of conversation?” And that’s where a lot of dating relationships may go, “Hey, we’re not capable of a healthy resolution of conflict.” Then you’re not ready to get married. So I think you have to see that.

David Platt:
Yeah, that’s really good.

Ben Stuart:
And then I think you also have to see, “What does the community say? People who really know me and trust me, do they see this as good?” I mean, that Song of Solomon, right? God, the lover, the beloved and her friends are the only voices, and her friends are not nothing. They say, “Rightly do the maidens love you.” You need your friends to tell you this is right. And so I think those two things help.

Austin Huang:
Yeah, that’s good.

Ben Stuart:
And the last thing, and I mentioned it earlier too, is I think you do need to see within yourself that I want this to work, that we’re both committed to this relationship. When you read Song of Solomon, she’s like, “I want him to kiss me with his kiss of his mouth.” And then when it gets to him, he’s a stag leaping on the hills. He wants to get to her, she wants to get to him. Every chapter starts with them apart and trying to find each other. But if you’re like, “Well, she loves Jesus, I guess I will learn to love her.” We don’t need to do this, but do I see that I want to work this out? I want to be with you. That’s not nothing either. So you need the time to figure that out.

David Platt:
So good.

Austin Huang:
100%.

David Platt:
So put all this together. Yeah, it was so good. I think that was just gold. So cause, character, they’re all Cs, right?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah.

David Platt:
Cause, character-

Ben Stuart:
Chemistry.

David Platt:
Chemistry, conflict and community. And then the last one you put on there was just that commitment, that desire that, man, that’s gold for anybody to hold onto.

Austin Huang:
Let’s say you get to that point and you realize, “Oh, I don’t like what I’m seeing in all of these,” how do we break up in a healthy way that honors God and doesn’t just… I can be the first to admit, I’ve had relationships where I have said, “I just don’t think God is calling me into this relationship right now.” And I regret that so much and I was so sorry.

Ben Stuart:
“I would do it, but the Lord said has said no to you.”

Austin Huang:
That’s what I’m say. Just to go and pursue some-

David Platt:
“It’s not you. It’s not even me. Trust Him.”

Austin Huang:
Yeah. I’ve grown some majority in many ways in that.

David Platt:
Bro, you’re not the only one who used that line. Yes.

Austin Huang:
So how do we then break up in a healthy, loving way?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, that’s a great… That’s actually one of the main reasons I did a revamped version. I don’t know if that’s why you teed it up. But so many people were like, “Okay, you have Single, Dating, Engaged, Married. What about single dating? Ooh, how do I get out of here?” So we had to write that chapter.

David Platt:
It’s good.

Ben Stuart:
I built it off of that passage in Ephesians of speaking the truth and love that we’re going to speak. Ghosting people is a cruelty. It’s a selfishness. “I’m just going to disappear from your life.” It’s interesting you can look statistically and it’s deeply painful when someone says, “You rejected me without even the courtesy of telling me. I just had to figure that out.” And so you see surveys, you’re like, “That’s a deeply painful thing to do to someone.” Have you ever done it? Yes. You’re like, “Oh, that’s not do unto others as I would have them do it to me.”

David Platt:
Oh, man.

Ben Stuart:
So for Christians, you go, “I’m going to tell you, I’m going to speak and I’m going to say the truth. I’m going to be honest and direct. I’m not going to blame it on the deity.” And you have to say what the truth is, but you can say like, “As best I can discern, I don’t think we’re a fit.” And I think that’s a fair thing to say. But then I think you just have to be clear. It’s like, so I’m up for real clarity of, “So I think we should discontinue dating.” There’s no ambiguity in that statement. “But I wish you the best and I want you to win in life. As best I can discern, I don’t think we’re made to be married.”
That’s very clear. It’s hard to say, but it’s better to do that than to, “Well, can I still call you and can I still text you and can we still go to movies? Can we still go on dates?” “Yeah, I guess. I mean…” You go, “Oh gosh.” That ambiguity becomes a cruelty because it takes from you that resource you can’t get back, which is time. So if you know relationship’s not looking good, don’t drag it on for years and years. Give them the kindness of the clarity that says that, “This is over, grieving process starts now,” because there will be one. But then it gives you the freedom to move on.

David Platt:
And don’t you think, or yeah, any thoughts on how we and the weight we put on a dating relationship, the less unnecessary weight we put on that earlier on can be really helpful in that picture. The picture of we’re running after Jesus and we’re friends and we’re cultivating this friendship. And yes, obviously there’s a reason why we’re walking through this process of dating, but if there comes a point where we’re not like, “Okay, we’re still running after Jesus, we’re still brother and sister in Christ. There’s a place here.” So not that that takes away all the grieving or the loss or the heartache that there might be there, but really approaching dating from the beginning in a healthy way is going to make break up, not that it makes it easy, but it’s going to make it healthier.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And the data supports what you just said. I mean, I can’t remember the article, not Christian, it was talking about that. The intensity of pain of a breakup is not directly correlated to the amount of time dating, it’s directly correlated to the amount of yourself you shared, particularly physically and sexually, because you’ve become addicted to that person. The dopamine hit, the oxytocin, physical intimacy releases the hormones that promote bonding. God built it that way, so that sex within a marriage reinforces the covenant. So when you’ve been playing with those marriage gifts and uniting yourself, and then you realize, “Oh, I can’t trust this person or we can’t communicate,” when you split, your body goes through withdrawal. I mean, chemically it does. And it can reset, but it will take time.
But I had always advocated for with people saying so if you just hold back all that sexuality, the tension, if you’re attracted to each other, has historically been a tension that’s meant to propel you through the evaluation process faster rather than dragging out serial monogamy over multiple years. So when you enter in and say, “Hey, we’re brothers and sisters in Christ running together, would you want to grab coffee with me? Can we see if there’s something here?” But you’re not touching each other and getting all excited. And then you figure out like, “Oh, he’s great but after five minutes, I’m like, ‘So how’s your mom?’ I don’t know.” And you realize, “I don’t think we need to do this,” you can merge back into the friend pool. But it’s interesting, when I first moved up here, people were like, “Well, I can’t date within the church because then if we break up, who gets the church in the divorce?” And you’re like, “You’re not married.”

David Platt:
Yes, right.

Ben Stuart:
You’re assuming that y’all are going to get real handsy. But if you don’t, if you just make it primarily relational-

David Platt:
You treat this as a brother and sister in Christ until the Lord says different.

Ben Stuart:
… you can down shift. And it may mean like, “Hey, let’s stop texting each other.” There is that recovery, even if you were pure physically, but it’s not as intense, and we can merge back into a friendship pool. I have actually seen that happen in our church multiple times, because our church is two-thirds single, and so it can work, it does work and it’s a very healthy way to do it.

David Platt:
Yes. And just very practically, based on all that we’re saying, it’s the community. Of course you would want to find a potential spouse in your church. To rule that out, it would not be wise. But it does call for wisdom in how to approach that relationship. It’s good.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, man. I loved that Donna had a big former Navy SEAL dad that loved her at her church. Our churches were like sister churches, so we didn’t go to the same one, but there was that overlap because the Christian community’s not that big in any city. And man, every time I showed up, he would physically grab me and walk me off somewhere and say, “How are you treating her? Are you respecting her?” But he would cry while he was doing it, it wasn’t like this fake macho. He was this big dude to grab people. So I’m like, “All right, man. Well, I do not want to let this man down.”
But it became fun, the joke. The tension of temptation is real, but I just loved it. And then he’d put his arms around me and pray for me. And I’m like, all right, I just love that-

Austin Huang:
That’s beautiful.

Ben Stuart:
… for Donna and I, these two young people that don’t fully know what they’re doing, to have some people that love us help was helpful. And so I do think if you’re listening to this and going, “Well, I don’t have that,” well, get involved in your church and start making friends across generational lines. And then as you date someone, you can do what I did where you can get them in orbit of each other and say, “Can you help me evaluate what we see?” That will help you get confidence in your own evaluation. Is this right or not? And we’ll need those friendships to make sure we’re the best version of ourselves.

Austin Huang:
That’s good.

David Platt:
I think one person that’s coming to my mind right now engaged in the dating process, she had community around her, not just a dad, like a biological dad, but other community, other men who did investigation of him in really good ways. They’re spending time with him there and she’s looking to these other people in the church to help her discern, “Is this the right guy?” That’s super wise.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah. That’s what I hope to do. My daughters are young, but as they get older, I just believe you keep your friends close and your enemies closer. So as these guys start taking interest in my girls, I’m going to spend a lot of time with them.

David Platt:
Yes, of course you are. Yes. Yes, absolutely.

David Platt:
Yes.

Austin Huang:
Wow, let’s go.
I know some people might not like the answer to this question, but are some people called to be single for their entire lives? And if so, how do they do that in a way that they’re actually happy about it?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah. Yes is the answer. You get that Paul talks about it. Jesus talks about it. I think short answer is what God ordains God sustains. I mean, He’s not going to call us to something He wouldn’t equip us by His grace to handle. And so Jesus talked about that. When He was talking about marriage, He set a really high bar and His disciples were like, “Well, then who should get married?” And He’s like, “Well, some were made eunuchs by others,” tough deal. “Some chose to be eunuch for the Kingdom of God.” And then He says, “But that’s received only by those who are called to receive it.” That’s not going to be everybody’s calling, but there are people that are going to say, “You know what? I don’t have what Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 7, this burning desire physically, sexually, that is the engine drawing me to marriage.” He’s like, “You may find I don’t have that.”
And you go, “Okay, well, we’re all born single.” God’s ordained singleness for all of us and He’s clear in 1 Corinthians 7, it’s not to fill your life with distractions, it’s to pursue an undistracted devotion to the Lord. So that’s everybody. And some people, as you’re pursuing that devotion, you go, “I don’t feel a great desire for marriage.” But Paul, in that same passage says, “If you do feel a great desire for marriage, get married.” He’s like, “You haven’t sinned.” So I do talk to some people that are like, “I really want to get married and I’m scared God’s going to call me to singleness and wreck my life.” You’re like, “Well, I don’t know, He’s called you to do it right now and I want you to maximize the gifts of this season.” But if you want to be married, pray for it, ask for it, and it’s not wrong to seek it.

David Platt:
And I think part of the point there in 1 Corinthians 7, he keeps saying, “If you’re married, be content in your marriage. If you’re single, be content in your singleness.” The bigger issue is contentment and Jesus. And I know as soon as I say that, some might say, “Well, yeah, you can say that because you’re married.” But I know many people who are married who sometimes think the grass is greener on the single side.

Ben Stuart:
Oh my gosh, yeah.

David Platt:
And so that’s actually a problem just in all of our hearts and not just with singleness and marriage, but just a lack of contentment and trust in Jesus and where He has us and believing He’s good and He gives good gifts, and that marriage is a good gift and that singleness is a good gift. And I think what’s fascinating about Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 he’s like, “It’s actually better.” I mean, he goes so far, he’s like, “If you have to, get married. But if you don’t, don’t do it. ” He’s actually saying it’s better. So that’s a perspective I think that feels… Well, and I really do, I get, and I’ve had many conversations with people who that doesn’t feel better/ but to trust the God who sees and knows all is saying this is good. And one day we’re all going to be single again, just like we’re ordained in the beginning when it comes to heaven. So yeah.

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, it’s interesting. You look at Genesis 3, the enemy, his playbook is stir discontent. That’s where it starts. Because I know if I can stir discontent, I can distance you from God. And once you do that, you distrust His character. And that’s what James says. A whole universe of sin is opened up. Why? Don’t be deceived, beloved brothers, every good and perfect gift comes from your Father. The lie that will launch a million sins is, “God’s not taking care of me. I got to go my own way.” So the enemy always wants us to feel discontent.
And that’s one of the things I read about is just, in my singleness, it was important to go, I could really focus on what I wish I had. I wanted to be married. I wanted to share that with somebody. But I did know friends that missed the freedoms they had in singleness because they’re encumbered. And I go, “That’s what the enemy does. He wants you to maximize the negatives in your status and minimize the positives.” And part of the discipline is to flip that and go, “What are the gifts in my season? Let me go hard after those.”
And that flipped for me. I wrote it like a manifesto when I was in my 20s. It was just so like, “Oh, my singleness will end either in marriage or death. But I don’t want to be at the end of singleness and go, ‘Man, I spent it just really complaining.'” I go, “No, God, I really want to drive fast the gifts of singleness. And if it’s devotion to you,” I started writing out books of the Bible, I was doing Bible studies every night. I’m like, “Why not?” Sitting home, so I’m leading Bible studies with students. And I thought, “I just want to go hard until this season’s over.” And it did end for me, like I said, later than all of my friends. But it did end for me. And I looked and go, I’m grateful for my single season. And-

David Platt:
You’re not going to regret going all in while you’re single or while you’re married on maximizing God’s design for singleness or marriage. You’re just not going to regret that.

Ben Stuart:
Well, and that devotion to my singleness is what set me up to find a healthy mate for marriage. And so I don’t want to miss that. And again, I have a great sympathy for young people now because it’s harder. It is messier. And I see that every day. So I’m trying to give simple, clear answers, but not minimize the struggle. It’s difficult. But I do think if you’re in a vibrant community where you’re speaking the truth to each other in love, you’ve upped your chances of having healthy relational dynamics. And that’s true. It’s true scripturally and the data plays it out. The people who are doing what we do are by and large considerably happier. And I want that for the young people I know that want to be married. I want them to be in a matrix where healthy marriages are much more likely.

David Platt:
Yes. So good.

Austin Huang:
I don’t know how we have already been talking for over 50 minutes at this point, which is pretty incredible. To land the plane, Ben, could you briefly share just one piece of advice for each of the four stages, single, dating, engaged, marriage?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, yeah. I feel like we really hit singleness. For me, Paul said it’s to secure an undistracted devotion to the Lord, that I’m going to get a relationship with God right before I get a relationship with a guy or a girl right. So for me, that was real clarifying. Because we didn’t get into them, but all my dating attempts in college were a dumpster fire. They were a total mess. And so that’s why I realized I was like, “I don’t think I know how to do this. I should probably stop. For the sake of the world, just to take a beat.” And the best thing I did in my singleness is going, “I’m going to get this Ben and God relationship. I’m going to prioritize that.” So I’d say do that. And hand Him all the uncertainty that comes with that. “But I want to be married and where will I meet him?” And He says cast your cares upon Him, because he cares for you. So I would say that. Just decide that now.
In dating, I would keep in mind it’s for evaluation. It’s not a status to sit in. “Oh, we’re dating. Good. Now let’s kind of play house like we’re married.” Don’t try to import the gifts of marriage into a status. So I would say what Paul told Timothy, treat older women as mothers, younger women as sisters with absolute purity. You don’t fool around with your sister, you don’t fool around with each other because you’re trying to figure out, “Are we a good relational fit?” Evaluate. And we talked about some of the keys to evaluation.
And engagement, we didn’t talk about that as much. Engagement is about union. You’ve discerned you found the right person, “How do we knit our lives together?” And I’d say the most important thing in engagement is communication. Teams of any kind can overcome a lot of obstacles if they know how to communicate. But if they don’t know how to communicate, you’re not going to win many games. You’re going to be throwing the ball and receiver’s over there. So you got to go, “Can we resolve conflict? Can we solve problems?” Because the best of relationships will have frictions. And as you’re getting engaged, the high friction areas are usually family, “How do our in laws relate? How do they perceive this relationship?” There’s frictions there. “How do we do holidays?” You got to solve stuff.
Finances, which is a number one stressor in marriage. It’s usually not, “Do we have enough money?” It’s, “How do we spend it? How do you spend money? How do I spend money? What are our values around money? How much of it do we give away? What level of spending do we let each other know about and what do you just do?” So finances. And then future, “Where are we going? What are your career goals? What are mine? What are our kid goals? Where are we going to live?” All three of those are areas that can blow up into fights and tension and yell at each other or freeze each other out. But if you have good communication, we know how to solve problems together, then you just point out these areas of potential friction and say, “Let’s apply our good communication skills to those.” And that’s a quick answer.
And then marriage, I think the healthiest marriages are on mission. We only get one healthy marriage in the New Testament, Priscilla and Aquila. And they are a couple on mission together. They are like at the depth of every human heart is a longing for community and a cause. I want to be a part of a cause bigger than my life that’s worthy of my life and a part of a community that loves me and cares about me. And the strongest communities are those with a common cause. We are chasing something together. So I think if your marriage is on mission, it’s usually in really safe hands of going, “Hey, I married someone that we’re chasing the Lord together and we want to be shaped in His image together.” That’s exciting. You never run out of things to talk about.

David Platt:
Yes, yes.

Ben Stuart:
So people ask Donna and I that all the time like, “What do you do at night?” We’re like, “Man, we talk about all kinds of stuff. Pray about all kinds stuff.” We have lunch together almost every day. Not everyone can do that. But we never run out of things to talk about because we’re on mission together. And that’s exciting and it’s really fun. And I want that for everybody. And so there’s more to say, that’s the fast version.

Austin Huang:
Yeah. Love it.

David Platt:
There’s more to say. I really would just totally commend this book, Single, Dating, Engaged, Married. I’m just super thankful, bro, for God’s grace in your life and how you’ve stewarded it in ways that, yeah, I just think about this whole conversation and all the work you’ve done along these lines. Because, man, this bears fruit for generations.

Ben Stuart:
I hope so. Yeah.

David Platt:
So thank you, bro.

Ben Stuart:
Thanks, brother.

David Platt:
I’d love would you pray us out and just pray specifically for single, dating, engaged or married people that are listening to this right now?

Ben Stuart:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Lord, thank you for David. Thank you for Austin. Thank you for Radical and the good they’re doing of calling people to lift their eyes and see what you’re up to in the world, God. And I pray that for all of us now, give us the grace to lift our eyes and see you as you are. You’re a good dad. And you give good gifts and you care.
And so Lord, I pray that anxieties about uncertainties, we could deliver them in your hands right now, of there is always much in our circle of concern over which we have no control. And you tell us what to do with those things. Be anxious about nothing. But with prayer and supplication, let our request be made known to you. So I do pray even now for the freedom of people being able to say that, “God, I need to put my emotions in your hands. I long to be married and I give that longing to you.” Or maybe you are dating and saying, “We are trying to figure this out, God, I hand the anxiety over to you. Would you bring along wisdom? Yes, shape it in me, but then bring it around us. Would you bring wisdom around us?”
So Lord, I pray whatever status we’re in, we could just feel that freedom of coming honestly to you, say, “We want to be yours.” And I pray in whatever season we’re in, maybe now, that someone listening to this could say, “I want to consecrate this season to you. I want to honor you, God, with my singleness. I want to glorify you in my dating. I want a dating story that I could tell my kids without me having to break eye contact. That I could say, ‘Mom and dad are not perfect, but we got this part right.'” So God, I pray that over this generation. I pray for your grace to help us as believers help each other. Help single people find vibrant places to use the gifts God put them in our churches. And then help dating couples evaluate God. Help engaged couples communicate in a healthy way. And I pray as your people, brothers and sisters in Christ, we can help marriages flourish.

David Platt:
Yes, God.

Ben Stuart:
God, it’s wild. One of the greatest apologetics for Jesus in Ancient Rome was the health of Christian marriages. People saw that we were happier. And I just think of what Louise Perry said, we are primed for another sexual revolution, but one that looks more like Ancient Rome than the 1960s and ’70s. We are ready for the world to see healthy, vibrant Christian marriages. And so God, I pray that over everyone listening, that you would give us healthy, vibrant singleness and healthy, vibrant marriages for your glory. And may the world come to know Jesus because they see the fruit of Jesus’ work in our relationships. So we love you, God and pray that in Jesus’ name.

David Platt:
Amen.

Austin Huang:
Thanks so much for joining us today on Everyday Radical. If this episode stirs your heart for Christ and His mission, our hope is that you would check out some of our previous episodes as well. And do not forget to subscribe so you don’t miss out on what’s ahead. Let’s keep making Jesus known everywhere together. See you next time.