What Christian Creatives Want the Church to Know with Thomas Terry

Austin Huang:
Thomas, thank you so much for joining us.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah, man.

Austin Huang:
Such a pleasure. I think creativity is something that we haven’t talked about really at all on the podcast yet. And so I would love to just jump off the deep end and start asking you about your testimony. How does creativity shape the way that you view God, chase after God, follow God? We’d just love to give the audience a taste of your life.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. So I’ll talk about how the Lord found me and the context by which he found me. I was born into a very ugly world. Abusive father, was abusive to my mom, abusive to me and my brothers. When I was eight years old, he was shot and killed and so I saw the ugliness of death and my mom remarried another man, he was equally abusive. So by the time I was 12 years old, I just looked at life, the world around me as if it was just nothing but ugly. And then when I turned 18… Well, so when I was 12 years old, it was the first time I started exploring music, hip hop, so it was pretty grimy. I used hip hop as a way to connect with other men, used hip hop as a means for finding validation and affirmation, which of course only happens when you’re the best. And so you start to explore championing your art form so that people will accept you and embrace you and all of that was just longing.
When I was 18 years old, there was a friend of my mom’s and her name is Elaine and she had heard from my mom, none of them were Christians, but this woman Elaine was a Christian, she had heard from my mom about my very ugly world and she invited me on a picnic. And so she was like 35. She was upper class, really sweet lady. And I was 18 and I thought that this was maybe like a date, I didn’t know what to expect. And she invites me on a picnic and she sits me down and for the first time she unfolds the beauty of Jesus. And she did it in such a way where she spoke primarily of the love of the Father who would send Jesus to die for my sins and make everything that was broken and twisted in my world, beautiful and glorious. And so here I am at this picnic with this wonderful woman and I’m just compelled by the beauty of Jesus.

David Platt:
Is this the first time you ever would’ve heard the gospel?

Thomas Terry:
Yeah, at least that clearly. I mean, I had heard some things from some people, but was never really clear to me. But this was for whatever reason the first time the Lord opened my eyes and my defenses were laid down. And from there, moving forward where the Lord just began to make beautiful things from all that was broken in my life. And I think the juxtaposition of my life before and God redeeming everything and giving me new eyes to see just first and foremost, his beauty has just given me eyes to see beauty and creativity in everything around me. And so now my life is just like all I see is beautiful things. So that’s how I was introduced to creativity and beauty and things of that nature.

Austin Huang:
That’s amazing.

David Platt:
Wow. There’s so much there, man. So yeah, that transformation, was it pretty stark at 18? Or like, okay, that started a pretty gradual… I mean, obviously there’s a lot that’s gradually happened since then.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. I mean, I would say it was stark in terms of my appetite to explore Jesus. I wouldn’t say that in that moment I made a declaration of Jesus as Lord and Savior, but it was in that moment where things began to crystallize for me, where I saw like, man, this is overwhelming and altogether satisfying to… I want to figure this out. And so she invited me to her church and I just began with curious eyes attending this charismatic church and the people were lovely. It was in one sense, God used the church to provide the affirmation that I was longing for, which we’re naturally longing for, connection and community.
I found it in the church by way of Elaine introducing me to the church and bringing me to it. And I would say it was probably six to nine months where my heart bent before Jesus. And then I would say I was kind of trying to figure that out and so it was a long road of sanctification, but every six months I was better than I was six months before. The Lord was making me new. So for some people, it’s instantaneous, but I think my world was so broken that there was a lot of pieces that needed to slowly get put back together. Yeah.

David Platt:
But man, did you keep in touch with Elaine?

Thomas Terry:
I’m still in touch with Elaine.

David Platt:
Yeah. That’s awesome.

Thomas Terry:
We don’t speak as often as I would like to, but I’m infinitely grateful.

David Platt:
Yes.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. And I think this is massive and a lot of folks don’t understand this. So I’ve been now a Christian longer than I’ve not been a Christian and in most spaces they emphasize in order to be effective, you have to engage the culture, you have to know the culture or contextualize and that’s just so bogus. This woman was nothing to me. We didn’t come from the same background. She was an upper class woman, I was obviously lower class. She knew nothing about hip hop, the brokenness of my world and she invited me on a picnic. She didn’t try to meet me in the streets.

David Platt:
It’s like, you don’t do a lot of picnics.

Thomas Terry:
Yes. Which just testifies that it’s God’s work and he uses ordinary means to draw people to himself.

David Platt:
So good.

Austin Huang:
Yeah.

Thomas Terry:
And yeah, strangely it was exactly what I needed, beauty. So she would’ve met me in the grimy streets or if it was some other cat that was… Yeah, God was just so infinitely kind.

David Platt:
I love that. What a great takeaway. For anybody listening to this who’s like, okay, hip hop’s not my thing. It wasn’t Elaine’s thing and she’s had a massive-

Thomas Terry:
Genuinely not Elaine’s thing.

David Platt:
By God’s grace, in not just in your life, but then all the fruit of your life that has come through that is continually coming through that. That’s awesome.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah.

Austin Huang:
And so in that time that you’re finding your relationship with God, was hip hop still this thing? Were you wrestling with one foot in, one foot out? What was that like?

Thomas Terry:
Yeah, that was quite challenging for me, to be honest. So the church that I became a part of, the church where the Lord had saved me in, their perspective of hip hop was negative and I can understand why. And I remember clearly sitting with a couple of the pastors and they told me, “You can’t really do that devil music anymore.” And as a young Christian trying to figure things out, I’m like, “Well, yo, I’m not trying to do devil music.” So I think while my world was becoming bigger and more beautiful, my affection for music and hip hop began to narrow down into almost nothing because I was trying to learn what it meant to be obedient and follow Jesus.
And I do think a part of me creatively died and so it wasn’t until three or four years later when I began to grow as a Christian and my worldview began to put some pieces together where I started to develop a longing to engage the community that I was largely shaped by in my youth. And I do think the Lord deposited in me these unique hip hop gifts, and so little by little, I began to explore it in a way that was largely different than how I first was introduced to hip hop. But I started to explore it in a way that was redemptive and in many ways evangelistic and in some ways in an apologetic way. So I went from a battle rapper to a kind of truth teller, a storyteller and that process just began to become more and more refined. And through years I began to explore creativity a lot more. Yeah. So that was a rough start, but I think a beautiful finish, I guess.

David Platt:
When that transformation or redemptive… I just love all the way you put that. That was gold. I’d love to just pull out of you, what are some of the… When you think about hip hop viewed just from the pattern of this world, or hip hop viewed from a transformed mind, more of redemptive, Christ-centered, God-exalting picture, what are some of the major differences or what are some of the foundations or anchors that separate…

Thomas Terry:
Yeah, that’s a great question. As a 12-year-old, which is when I first started listening to hip-hop and exploring it, I learned manhood, which is womanizing, it’s being the baddest, being the grimiest, being the most aggressive, fight for your place in this world. I learned everything about love, which was very distorted, conquest, sexual exploration, sexual exploitation. I learned everything about even camaraderie, which was very superficial and thin. I learned about acceptance, which was in many ways anti-gospel, like you perform well enough and we will accept you. And these things have a way of crystallizing your worldview. And so when I first became a Christian, it wasn’t simply just trying to be a good Christian. It was decoupling from all of my false ideas about what it meant to be a man, what it meant to love, what it meant to have good friendship, what it meant to be humble, submissive, all these things.
And God’s Word has a way of little by little reframing your presuppositions concerning manhood and it gives you a proper framework for what a real man is to look like. Of course, we see this in its most excellent expression in the life of Jesus, what it looks like to be a good friend. Well, no greater friend than someone that would lay his life down for his friends. What is love? Well, obviously laying your life down for your friends, that’s the greatest expression of love. Service, all these things, God’s word began to reshape me and recalibrate me and build a proper worldview, but that was hard. That was hard, especially when it came to… I think the big things were a little bit easier, but when it came to creativity and artistry, that was very hard because no matter how you dice it, much of our artistry or creativity is about displaying and being the best that you could possibly be. And so that I think took years to try to figure out and I think I’m still learning.

Austin Huang:
So I live in Austin, Texas, which is known to be a very creative place. I’m friends with a lot of creatives and it seems to me that there’s this underlying feeling amongst most of them that they don’t feel like they belong in spaces within Christianity. What would you say to someone who feels like they’re creative and they have all these gifts, like you’re saying, to display the beauty of God, the glory of God, but they just don’t feel like they belong well enough in the church. Speak to the church and speak to them.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. I think there’s two things that have to be adjusted and I’ll start first with the church and this is a big one, but I think the church for many years has learned to leverage artists as a resource primarily, not as a person. And so when you’re a creative and you’re in the church, immediately, and I don’t think the church does this maliciously, I think it’s just they see creativity, they see good artistry and they’re like, “We want some of that. We love it.” We were made to be creative and to enjoy creative things and so I think what happens is the church unknowingly begins to, in many ways, exploit the creative.
And so the creative feels like “I’m not a whole person here, I’m a utility.” I think that contributes to their lack of belonging. I think there’s a remedy for that and it’s not always the remedy that I think the church thinks about. I think the remedy for helping creatives belong is to actually not leverage their creativity at all at first in the context of a local church. I think it’s to help them become… What they really want is to feel like a part of the community and I think you help them assimilate well by not exploiting their gifts, but helping them learn to be human like the rest of the congregation, so serve in the nursery. If your whole world is oriented around playing the guitar, gigging for a living and then you show up on Sunday mornings and you’re just gigging again on Sunday mornings, I think that has a way of messing up their mind to where they conflate performance with service.
And so by inviting them into spaces that are non-creative, you’re actually treating them as a whole person, not just as a creative resource. So I think that’s one way where the church can begin to serve creatives well and help them feel like they belong. You’re more than your art. Now I think there’s eventually a time where you can, once you’ve helped them find some orientation and a sense of belonging, you can slowly help them use the gifts that God has given them for the benefit of the church because God purchased those gifts by his own life with the intention of serving God’s people, but that takes time and it takes a full oriented Christian, not just a creative Christian.
The other thing is that I think the creative has to learn that the church is not the primary place for them to display all of their creativity and showcase all of the wonderful things that they can do. There’s room for that, but I think many creatives enter the church and say like, “Yeah, I am the most creative person in this space, so make room for me.” And so I think that’s a very dangerous place and I think that prevents them from actually belonging. I think there’s this relationship between the church learning to treat the creative as a whole person and then the creative must enter the church as a servant, not the church serving their creative or whimsical desires. So there’s some repair that I think needs to be done there.

David Platt:
Absolutely. There’s a lot that’s counter-cultural, counterintuitive that’s there, right? Because yes, I mean, I can totally see it. The church is like, “Oh, you have these gifts. Let’s start using them.” And this person like, “Oh yeah, that’s who I am. So this is who I need to be in the church.” And I love that. I mean, it’s really like disciple making. I just think about how formational this is for a church and for that person walking through the kind of process you just outlined for that person to be like, “Yeah, no, I’m in Christ as a part of this body, as a brother, sister, not as a super creative person.”

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. See, creative people in general… Well, let me ask you this. What other person identifies themself by what they do? Like for example, people don’t introduce themselves to the world like, “Hi, my name is Jack. I’m a plumber” or “I’m a plumber Christian” or whatever. But for whatever reason, creatives have a strong sense of identity in their creative work and that’s a whole other thing we could talk about. But the point is creatives have a hard time relinquishing their identity as a creative and pushing into their identity as a Christian. And so the church has to help them to identify as a Christian primarily who does creative things and is gifted for a specific purpose, not like, “Oh, I’m a creative.” Identity’s huge, so both have some work to do. The creative has to learn, “My identity is primarily in Jesus,” the church has to help them say, “Your identity is a Christian, not a creative.” But oftentimes the creative is the first… Immediately pastors sniff them out like, “Oh, we got a creative guy. This is going to be great for the church.”

David Platt:
It’s because pastors are usually not that. It’s like, “Oh man, yes, this is going to be…” Yeah.

Thomas Terry:
Because the church recognizes there is value in beauty and aesthetics and they long for that. We were made for that and they can’t produce it on their own. They’re much more didactic and so immediately they’re just like, “Well, you were made for doing beautiful things. Well, let’s just use you for that.” I think you just got to slow down a little bit, disciple them, make them healthy and then little by little let them use their gifts in the context of a local church.

David Platt:
I love the way that the process you’re outlining and the patience involved in it, what it produces on the other side fundamentally and so it really is better all the way around. It’s win-win. It’s a person who’s being more fully formed into the image of Christ, finding their identity in Jesus and out of the overflow of that identity being free to use and to have walked through the process of how can I best glorify God as a member of the church with these unique gifts he’s given me? But that takes time.

Thomas Terry:
It does. And what’s crazy about that is choosing that pathway for the creative I think makes them better Christians and better creatives. Here’s what I mean by that. If you ask any creative like, what do you want to do with your art or your creativity? And they will almost always say, “I want to make something that’s out of this world. I want to make things that are transcendent. I want to make things that make people respond and feel and emote.” And of course the best way to help them, the most transcendent thing you can do is be a Spirit-filled Christian who’s flourishing with a God of transcendence.

David Platt:
Who looks like Jesus.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. Christians uniquely have the ability to create transcendent art because they are indwelled by a transcendent God. So discipleship makes them not only healthier Christians, it makes them the best possible creatives the world has ever known.

David Platt:
That’s so good. The text that’s come to my mind is 2 Corinthians 3:18, “Beholding his glory,” I’m not going to say beauty is the exact synonym, but beholding his beauty, we’re transformed from one degree of glory to another, from one degree of, yes, in a very real sense, beauty, from one degree of beauty to another. We’re becoming like Jesus, this is amazing beauty.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah, the beautiful one.

David Platt:
Yes. Yeah. It’s so interesting. This is definitely not a rabbit trail we need to run down, but I’m even processing through how, as a pastor, especially thinking through how it’s not exactly the same and I’m sure there are differences, but I think about the businessman who comes into the church and it’s like, “Oh, you’re really good with business. We need to get you on this team that’s helping think through…” And all of a sudden his identity, or his or her identity, it’s doing some of the same thing instead of really seeing each other as brother, sister, as person whose deepest need is to be conformed to the image of Christ and then to use whether these natural gifts or spiritual gifts that are endowed by God for his glory in sanctified ways. Yeah. You mentioned, maybe we could talk about this a little bit more, but like creativity and identity and the lure of conflating the two.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. I think the wrestle for… So the wrestle is there are so many creatives that are creating for identity and not creating from identity. And if you don’t figure that out, you will spend the rest of your life chasing affirmation with your creativity and you will die a thousand deaths by every critique. And that’s a huge problem with creatives. I see it all the time and I feel it in me. You create a beautiful artifact, like for example, you make a record, if you’re an artist and you make a record, you could have 1,000 people that say, “Man, I really love that record.” But that one review, that one review that says, “Eh, it wasn’t as good as their first record.” It’s like a dagger to the heart that crushes the soul and that’s because you’re longing, you’re pursuing identity rather than creating from it. There’s deep satisfaction and security by knowing who you are in Jesus and being a creative over and against, “Hey, feed my addiction for affirmation.” And many creatives are addicted to affirmation because their identity is shaking.

Austin Huang:
Well, I think too, it’s a fascinating thing to think like in the beginning God created and he said it was good. So he didn’t create us and say, “Oh, what do you think?” In the beginning he created, he said it was good. And I think in my own life I’ve been creating on social media for a few years now and I never knew if I was a creative, but more recently I feel like I’m stepping into that because and partially what you’re saying in the negative, I’m responding to the critique of other people. I’m working hard on a video that I made and it’s not getting the same reaction I thought it would. And so in my own flesh, I’m just like, “Well, I’m not as good of a creative. I’m not a good enough creator. What about this person over there?” So in your life, comparison, was that something that really, especially becoming a Christian, being drawn out of this other world that you were raised in, was comparison ever a big thing for you?

Thomas Terry:
Yes.

David Platt:
Is comparison continually a battle?

Thomas Terry:
It’s constantly.

David Platt:
Yeah.

Thomas Terry:
I think that’s not just unique to the creative. I think it’s unique to everyone. Pastors do it all the time. Moms do it all the time. That’s why they scroll through Instagram and they see these mom-fluencers and they are comparing their momming with… It’s the residual effects of sin in our life that creates competition rather than satisfaction and flourishing and just creating. But yeah, for so much of my life, I’ve been trapped by comparison. I think the more I begin to pursue creativity for God’s glory, the more I find satisfaction in the process rather than the reactions of people.

Austin Huang:
That’s beautiful.

Thomas Terry:
And I think there are these… I think one of the most helpful things for me in the process of creative work or whatever was to take beats before I create and pray, “God help me to find joy in what I’m creating outside of the approval of man. I want to make beautiful things because you’ve made me this way. I want to make beautiful things to bring you glory.” I want to make beautiful things that just make me feel human, right? I don’t want to just make it because other people are going to tell me how good I am or how bad I am. That’s liberating. And I think posturing yourself in deep dependence that says, Lord, protect my heart not only in the artifacts that I create, but in my heart as an artist, it’s freeing.

David Platt:
Yes, it is totally freeing. Yeah. Yes. Because it’s a fight for that kind of freedom and there’s an adversary… I’m thinking about C.S. Lewis’s chapter on pride and him just saying, yeah, it’s rooted in comparison. You’re not proud because you did something great. You’re proud because you did something greater than somebody else. Come along somebody who’s done something greater, you’re not as proud anymore. But then I think about 1 Corinthians 4, which is unique in the sense that Paul’s talking about his stewardship as an apostle, but I do think it’s helpful.
“Moreover, what’s required of us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God, that we be found faithful.” I think that’s Paul defining success. Success equals not how many churches you plant for him or this or that, or how many records you sell or how many… Success equals faithfulness. And then I love the way he goes on after that to say, thankfully I’m not judged based on what you say about me and I’m not even judged about what I say about me. Just because I feel great about it doesn’t make it… My Judge is the one who sees all, knows all and so I want to live for what he says and I know what he says in his Word and then I’m going to trust…
But there’s nothing like some good criticism to help your heart get checked on whether or not you’re living for him alone because yeah, I think that’s where, man, I’m thankful for criticism, even unfair criticism that I’ve received in my life because it’s exposed things in my heart where, okay, that hurt a lot more than… Maybe I am kind of living for that in ways I didn’t realize. And that’s where the freedom comes in. Whoa, the Lord is using that which the adversary intended for evil for some really good things that my heart needs. Man, I know pastors need that. I’m supposing every creative needs that.

Thomas Terry:
That’s for sure.

David Platt:
Yeah.

Thomas Terry:
That’s for sure. Well, the comparison thing, I don’t know if I’ve ever said this publicly, but the comparison is so deep in me and the competition is so deep in me that it’s why I no longer make music because I feel it bubble up the more I invest in music. And I’ve so asked the Lord to help me and when I start to feel the pressure and the bubbling up of it, I feel like I’m losing a sense of being faithful or I’m losing a sense of just being satisfied in my creative contributions. And so for me, when it comes to music, I’m just safer by not making the artifacts because I’m so proud in that area and I don’t like it, it’s ugly. I’d rather not pursue it than let the possibility of it take root in my heart. And it’s weird because I could do other things, but for whatever reason when it comes to music in this season of life, I just don’t do it, to protect my heart.

Austin Huang:
Thank you for sharing that with us. I really think that someone hearing that might free them from the approval of man because you’re a living example of taking up your cross. If this thing is pointing me back to my fleshly desires, back to a place that I don’t want to be in and I don’t want anything to do with it. And so thank you for sharing that. I know you’re a pastor now. When did that happen? How has that journey been for you?

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. So I became a lay pastor in 2014 while I was touring with Beautiful Eulogy. And as we were traveling the country, we would do these shows and after the shows we would just come out and talk with people. And what we began to see is that, man, there is a great need for pastors to shepherd a lot of these people who are coming to shows and it began to change my framework. I used to think, well, I could reach a whole bunch of people by putting out more and more records and consistently touring or I could actually start to just focus my attention on 80 people and give them 80 years of my life or however many years the Lord would give me.
And that began to transition something in my heart. And then around 2017, so I’m a lay elder in a church and our primary preaching, teaching pastor has a moral failure and the church is on the precipice of collapsing. And the other elders in my church had asked me if, because I was just a touring artist and running this ministry, Humble Beast, they asked me, “Could you put that on hold and just help the church into health for a year?” And I think that was probably the hardest thing for me and the best thing for me because I don’t know if I would’ve made the jump into pastoral ministry, I had to be thrown into it by the providence of God. And so yeah, now I’ve been serving as a pastor for almost nine years as a lay preaching pastor and I find that to be the most satisfying thing. Now, I will say, that wasn’t the case for the first three years.
Primarily because I felt like preaching was not a very creative exercise. I found it to be constraining, didactic, parsing verbs and exegetical words. That’s for those dudes, not for me. And I feel like I had to learn how to be the way God has made me as a creative in the pulpit. And see, here’s where this comparison thing kicks in. Instead of me comparing myself with other artists, I began to compare myself with other preaching pastors. How do they do it? What is most effective? All of that stuff and that ugliness began to bubble up. And so I just hated that for like three years. I was like, I love the people. I wanted to serve these people and love them well, but just preaching, I just did not want to do.
But I think the third year the Lord freed me and I think allowed me to kind of synthesize my creativity and my affinity for storytelling and symmetry and beauty and all of that in my declaration of the goodness of God. And so I began to learn how do I function as a creative pastor and be who God has made me to be with the people God has entrusted to me. And I think if I would have jumped into… If I wouldn’t have had the fighting for affirmation thing put to death, I think that would have been very dangerous for me as a pastor or like the kind of perform for approval because in many ways… Or even like creating for other people. I think the Lord was kind to grow me before pursuing preaching as a pastor because now I think I’m more creative when I preach, at least this is what my congregation tells me, but I’m not doing it to perform.
I’m doing it because that’s what God has made… That’s how he’s made me. So I often tell some… I’m in a collective of other pastors that are not like me, praise be to God and they’re always asking me like, “Hey, the way you use symmetry in your words when you’re preaching, what process do you import that in?” And I’m like, “I don’t do that. It just naturally comes out.” I have to go through the process of taking it out because if I don’t take it out, it could be a distraction, right? It’s too much creativity. So I’m actually reverse engineering some of the creative stuff, but I have found a lot of satisfaction in using the gifts that God has given me to serve the people God has entrusted me in the pulpit in a creative way. And I’ve found a lot of satisfaction in doing that when I originally hated it.

David Platt:
Man, there’s so much there. There were like, I don’t know, in everything you said, I feel like there were like 10 takeaways and I won’t be able to… But I just want to kind of, even just as people are processing and just listen to that, like one, God’s uniquely created you. You don’t have to be that other pastor and he doesn’t have to be you. And similarly with any creative, you don’t have to be that person, they don’t have to be like… Just be content in who God’s made you to be, faithful with who God’s made you to be. The fight for, I’m trying to remember the way you put it, performing for approval and fighting for affirmation. Apparently that’s for just about any facet of life and work, that’s going to be a battle. There’s freedom in that battle that God grants that we need to fight for like in any, not to fight for affirmation, but fight against that to fight for the freedom that God has made possible for us.
I just think, because one place my mind was going was back to what you shared earlier, that you mentioned you had not said before publicly. I just think God, because the journey you just described is basically God giving you a freedom from that fight that you haven’t felt in music. So I just think that’s part of his leadership in your life. He’s called you to pastor in a way he’s not called you to create music in the same way and he gives grace for that calling. And I just think about those who God has called to create music or to create art or whatever, he’ll give that grace, but there’s a sanctification process to be able to be free from that.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. There is a pruning in that.

David Platt:
Yes, there’s a pruning and it’s wise to not just keep going, like you could have just kept creating music and just kept indulging the flesh in that sense, but there was wisdom in saying, “I got to back up. Either God’s going to give me grace and I’ve got to figure out a way to do this by his grace in this, or maybe he’s calling me to something else,” which obviously he’s done. And yeah, I’m sitting here listening to you talking about preaching. So maybe this would be another takeaway, I’ve always said preaching is art but it’s not fine art. And the distinction I just made just with the Latin “fine”, like it’s not art as an end in and of itself. I hear you saying, “If I’m not careful, I can create something, a sermon that people like, ‘That looks, that’s amazing,'” art as an end in and of itself.
As opposed to I hear you saying, “I want my sermon with all God’s unique grace in me and obviously his Word at the center. I want it to edify and so I want to be faithful to edify.” And I think that’s the same with any art, music, any kind of art form is that for a Christian way to produce art is not fine art. It’s not art as an in and of itself, it’s art that edifies. It’s art that builds up followers of Jesus. It’s art that points people to the beauty of God, maybe people who are far from God to the beauty of God. So art as a means to an end, not the end.

Thomas Terry:
Amen.

David Platt:
Yeah.

Thomas Terry:
When I read my Bible, I can’t help but be drawn in to the beauty of God. And I don’t mean that in some superficial way, but even when you read how God’s Word, like when you trace this biblical theology all the way through scripture, this is like so creatively woven together, so creative and so beautiful that no man could possibly do that. And the words in God’s… Just the way the words are constructed have a way of making the Lord so beautiful and what I want to do is just show like this is what… Do you see it? This is the beauty of God for you to delight in and enjoy.
And then there’s something strange about there’s nothing else, even your best attempt to create the most beautiful display of God’s truth, it will fall flat and empty unless the Spirit of God attend your effort and bring it to life in the heart of a believer. That I think is uniquely humbling. You could go through the notions, but there will be no effect unless the Spirit of God is at work and I love, even that is beautiful. I can do nothing to produce anything, I’m just delighting in the process of revealing and displaying God’s goodness to people.

David Platt:
In a 1 Corinthians 10 kind of way, so that your faith might not rest on the wisdom of man or whatever, but on the power of God, clearly what just happened did not come from… So that in preaching, then I would love to know your thoughts on this because I feel that as a pastor and preaching. I love that. So it’s not exactly the same because there’s nothing like God’s Word and its power to do that. Nothing in the world like this Word. With someone who’s creating a piece of art, a song, well, any kind of art, would it be accurate to say that the motivation is the same? I want to create something beautiful here.
Again, it’s not one-to-one with preaching, but I want to create something beautiful here that does expose something that’s transcendently beautiful and transcendently true. Even if it’s not… So it may not even be a technically Christian song, but it’s filled with truth and beauty or I mean, I’m thinking other pieces of art that reflect that beauty. There’s a way to do that as a creative who’s not preaching God’s Word, but is still trying to expose the beauty of God and the truth of God, what you create.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. I mean, I think the skies do that.

David Platt:
Yes, right. Yeah.

Thomas Terry:
The skies do that. And I do think it’s possible for creatives to want to achieve the same thing. I want to make something that testifies to the God who created everything in this world. I think that should be the drive of every Christian artist, but there is something uniquely different in that, creating something that compels people upward and outward is not the same as giving them God’s Word. One moves you to look up and out, one changes you, like radically changes.
And so I mean, I’ve just been so compelled to put the beauty of God’s Word on display because that’s the one thing that changes people’s lives. My art, you hear it all the time, “Oh, your music changed my life.” No, it didn’t. It might have given you a glimpse of beauty or an expression of who God is or what he is like, but only God’s Word can actually change your disposition. So I want to give the rest of my life to making that thing the most beautiful thing that people are enamored with.

David Platt:
So good. So maybe even… I’ve not thought about this until now, so you correct me, legit, I know we’re like on a podcast discussion and it would feel awkward to be like, “Actually, that’s not a healthy way to think about it.” But I really am asking you because the categories in my mind biblically are like general revelation and special revelation. The skies declare the glory of God, the work of his hands, but the skies can’t save only God’s Word centered in Jesus can save. So there’s ways to create art and music and many other things that display the glory of God, but that don’t have power to save, to transform the way you’re talking about.
So maybe for any person who is creating things that maybe are in a general way displaying the beauty of God to think through intentionally how at some point through their life and influence they’re pointing people to that which can save because this is not going to be sufficient. I mean, the reality is general revelation is sufficient to condemn, to Romans 1, all that does is show he’s glorious and we’ve sinned against him. And if they don’t have, then actually just… I mean, I’m always struck by this when I walk through the Himalayas, for example, it’s God’s glory on display everywhere and these are villages that have never heard the gospel. That means this beauty is only leading to condemnation. They’ve got to have the good news. So for creatives to figure out some way to make sure the special revelation, the Word of God is somewhere being communicated through their lives, through work or whatever.

Thomas Terry:
Amen. I think that’s an excellent observation and I think it’s good for us so that we understand the limitations of our creative contribution. It’s still lovely, it’s still amazing, it still speaks to something, but it’s limited. God’s Word is what changes us. And so finding ways to point people to the transcendent Word of God so that they might be changed because that’s the thing. I think as a Christian who is creative, I don’t want to just leave people with the artifact so that they look at it and know, “Oh, this is amazing. I feel a particular way about it.” No, I want to leave you with truth. I want beauty to be the wheelbarrow that brings truth to you so that you can find your greatest delight in God’s truth and be changed by it. It’s good, we need limits and the creative hates limits.

David Platt:
No, that’s good. That’s really good.

Austin Huang:
Thomas, on that topic of you brought it up of not doing it for God but from God. I think also with that, I was just thinking, reflecting on all that you’ve said is you have found joy in the process. So I think on top of that, it’s with God. It’s from God and with God. I think of one of my friends, she’s a very talented artist and she creates all of her paintings with God. And it’s so clear because it is that truth on display and the beauty that points whoever’s viewing it to see beyond just, “Oh, that’s a very pretty painting.” It’s like there’s depth to it.
There’s beauty, there’s truth in it. And so I love that aspect of you finding joy in the process that you’re creating with God and not for the approval of anybody, but it’s from the approval of God. I think that’s so beautiful. To land this plane in a way, what would you say to a young Christian creative who wants to use their gifts to glorify God, but they might be afraid of either compromising their faith, wasting their potential? What’s one encouragement that you would give to someone who is maybe even feeling unseen or underappreciated in the space?

Thomas Terry:
One thing?

Austin Huang:
Just one. You only have one thing. No, you can do multiple things.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. I would say to that Christian, God has uniquely made you to be a creative being and he’s made you that way for his glory. Be free to give him the glory that you were made for, give it. Be cautious to not be a glory thief by making art that points to yourself because you will never be satisfied. You will always feel like you’re never measuring up or you’ll always feel like you’re comparing with other people. You will die by a thousand critiques. Protect your heart from being a glory thief by making art that glorifies him. I think a practical way of doing this just because that’s very like, ooh, so artsy, I think a very practical way would be to make art that no one ever sees. You make for your God that created you.

David Platt:
Man, that’s good.

Thomas Terry:
And I have learned that has been a wonderful freeing discipline for me. Artists all have discipline, they hone their skill. The illustrator masters his fingers to make sure that he’s not too heavy and not too light. They master the art of the way the canvas sets ink into it. They master the art of timing and emotion. I would say exercise the discipline of protecting your heart by showing, like keeping some of the art that you make for no one to see. But just, Lord, I’m making this for you. And this could be… Yeah, I think it’s a very helpful and a very safe thing and it builds a muscle in you that says, “My art is not about me.”

David Platt:
Yeah. That’s so good, man. And your reward is enough for me. Just your glory, you’re being exalted, just me and you. I mean, it’s obviously the discipline of prayer, go into the room, close your door, pray to your Father who is unseen, and your Father sees what is done in secret, will reward you, that there’s… I love that. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody say that. I know you said we’re landing the plane, but I got to ask one more question because yeah, by God’s grace, you also use your creative gifts for the spread of his glory among the nations and global mission.
And yeah, I would just love for you to speak to that. Why is that the case and what do you think? Yeah, we talk all the time about this is for every follower of Jesus, it’s not just for the missionary. It’s not just for this… Every follower of Jesus has unique gifts and has a part to play in the spread of his glory and all the earth because that’s where all history is headed. So yeah, just how have you processed that and how’s that played out in your life?

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. Well, I want to be intentional with my creativity to be evangelistic. And so I’m going to be intentional to find ways to use my creativity to reach all people that are made in the image of God. And I think beauty transcends languages, beauty has a way of hitting the senses. Beauty has a way that moves your eye and your heart. And I want to use all of that creativity to point people across borders and even in Portland, Oregon, to want to long for the person behind all of that beauty. And that’s why I’ve partnered, I’ve sought to partner with people that want to make much of Jesus around the world and I want to help them make their messaging beautiful because their messaging is the message that saves.

David Platt:
Yes. Yes. That’s good.

Thomas Terry:
So yeah, I’m very excited about that. And I also think that’s another… It’s one of the things that God has been so kind to give me as a pastor who doesn’t have all the opportunity to make creative things as often as I’d like. But I get to partner with these organizations to herald the beauty and glory of Jesus around the world. So, yeah.

David Platt:
That’s really… And in a way that you’re pretty in the background.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. No one even knows what I’m doing. Right.

David Platt:
Yeah. So, sorry to bring attention to it, but yes, that’s another… Yeah, it’s what you were talking about. So it’s not just for the Lord, but it is producing stuff, creating stuff in ways that are not drawing any attention to you, that is literally helping spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. That’s pretty awesome.

Austin Huang:
Amen.

Thomas Terry:
Well, I think about the creatives that are on your team, Radical. These are some amazingly gifted people. And what’s amazing is that when they probably started making art, they all wanted to make art that the world could see. And now what they’re doing is they’re creating art that the world can see and no one sees them. And God is glorified. Isn’t that crazy?

David Platt:
Yes, that’s so good. That’s so good.

Austin Huang:
Praise God.

David Platt:
Bro, would you pray over those who are listening to this and just… I mean, we prayed before we started this, but just there are all kinds of people with all kinds of different gifts, skills, and just processing all they’ve heard in just different ways. I’d love for you to pray over them however the Spirit leads you.

Thomas Terry:
Yeah. Oh, Father, we do pray for any creative person, any non-creative person that might be listening, that might be struggling with how to do their art, how to protect their heart. I do pray, oh God, that first and foremost, you would liberate them from the tyranny of comparison, liberate them from the approval of man, liberate them from trying to find fulfillment and satisfaction in how people perceive them or how well their art is received. God, I pray first and foremost that you would help them to delight in Jesus, that they would begin to make meaningful, beautiful, glorious things for your glory, the source of meaning and all beauty. I do pray, oh God, that you would help all of us as creatives to find deep satisfaction, not just in the end of our art, but in the process of it. May we feel close to you and connected to you as we create.
May you help us to recognize that any effort that we use to create, we are always dependent upon the Spirit of God to have any fruit in our creative contributions. And Lord, I do pray that you would help us to use our creative work to spread your fame across the world, that we would not be glory thieves, but we would be spotlights. May John the Baptist be our example of what it means to be a hype man for Jesus, what it means to push people towards the Lamb who was slain. We can’t do that on our own, oh God, so do that in us. Protect us, keep us, and make us find deep joy in you, Lord. We pray in Christ’s name. Amen.

Austin Huang:
Amen.

David Platt:
Amen.