How Every Christian Should Think About Money with Bill & Dana Wichterman

Austin Huang:
Welcome to Everyday Radical, a podcast where we help the everyday Christian follow Jesus and make him known everywhere. We pray that today’s episode encourages you to do just that. So let’s dive right in. Many Christians once who honor God with their money, but few of us actually face the truth about how we spend, save and give. Budgets can look perfect on paper, but they often hide the reality of our habits, our priorities, even our fears.
Jesus repeatedly warns about the dangers of mismanaging our money, yet tracking every expense can feel tedious or overwhelming. So what would it mean to stop hiding behind these aspirational budgets and start living in financial reality as a form of discipleship? And how could that honesty actually lead to greater joy, freedom, and generosity in following the Lord?

David Platt:
So good. So with that stage set, I want to go ahead and from the very beginning, not just introduce you to Bill and Dana, but talk about this book, Stewards, Not Owners: The Joy of Aligning Your Money with Your Faith. I mean, it really is a picture, not just of your lives and the journey that God has taken you on, but the reality for every good gift we have intended to be stewarded for the spread of his glory. We are not owners and how all that relates to following Jesus and how we use our money are intertwined. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation, but maybe we can start by just a little background from you guys. How long have you been married? Something unique about, I don’t know, how you met or just life story just from the very beginning.

Dana Wichterman:
You go. You start.

Bill Wichterman:
Okay. I like to say I was cruising for chicks in Sunday school, adult Sunday school.

David Platt:
So good.

Bill Wichterman:
So we met at church on Capitol Hill.

Dana Wichterman:
Better than at the bars, right?

David Platt:
Okay, yes.

Austin Huang:
That’s true.

Bill Wichterman:
Better than at the bars. And Dana was wearing this beautiful teal dress and had said something really smart about the book we were reading, Foolishness to the Greeks, Lesslie Newbigin. And I’m like, okay, smart and beautiful. There we go. So I went and had to make her feel welcome right from the beginning.

David Platt:
So great.

Austin Huang:
I love it.

David Platt:
Is that how you remember it?

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah. And he’d only been at the church like two weeks-

Austin Huang:
Nice.

Dana Wichterman:
… but he came up to welcome me to the church.

Austin Huang:
That was kind.

David Platt:
And how long had you been there?

Dana Wichterman:
That was my first time.

Bill Wichterman:
First time, yeah.

David Platt:
Oh, Okay. Oh, well that’s good. He was the experienced member?

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah, exactly.

David Platt:
So you’re on Capitol Hill at that point.

Bill Wichterman:
Yeah.

David Platt:
How did you get to Capitol Hill?

Dana Wichterman:
Well, so I had just been overseas getting my master’s. I was in India.

David Platt:
Okay.

Dana Wichterman:
And it was interesting because in India as a woman, 40 years ago, you learn not to look at men in the eyes because that was very forward. So I had learned… And Bill had been overseas and was working with Turkish guest workers and had learned not to look at women in the eyes, that was too forward. So we come back to America and we’re both trying to not look at each other in the eyes. And then finally we’re like, “I think we can look at each other.”

David Platt:
Just another layer of the awkwardness when you’re doing the first meeting period, but then add some of those layers on. That’s really funny.

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah. But just the whole cultural sensitivity that we had tried to learn when we were overseas and then bringing it back here and realizing we’re in a different context now.

Bill Wichterman:
And you were working.

David Platt:
Yes.

Dana Wichterman:
I was working at the commerce department.

David Platt:
Okay.

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah, yeah.

Bill Wichterman:
International trade negotiations. And I was working on Capitol Hill for a member of Congress. I spent 20 years on Capitol Hill.

David Platt:
Okay. But you had been working with Turks overseas?

Bill Wichterman:
Turkish guest workers.

David Platt:
Okay.

Bill Wichterman:
Because I speak German, went there. That’s not their heart language. So I learned Turkish when I worked there.

David Platt:
Okay. Okay. How long did you live in Germany there?

Bill Wichterman:
Just a year.

David Platt:
Okay. All right. Then how did you end up going from working with Turkish guest workers, I mean, as a missionary in Germany to come to Capitol Hill…

Bill Wichterman:
Pounding the pavement. I had 200 resumes, one suit. I just started going door to door until I found something.

David Platt:
Really?

Bill Wichterman:
Yeah.

David Platt:
Okay.

Bill Wichterman:
Started at the bottom and just worked my way up.

David Platt:
Did you think you were going to be long-term missionary?

Bill Wichterman:
I was ready to move to Turkey.

David Platt:
Okay.

Bill Wichterman:
But I did not like being a missionary. I loved the overseas. I loved the language part, loved the culture part. Did not like sitting in tea houses all day long.

David Platt:
That’s interesting. I love that, just as I think about… And one of the things we talk about a lot is, yes, we’re all called to be a part of a global mission. That doesn’t mean we’re all called to move overseas. And even to your point, just that particular calling that involves sitting in tea houses all day was not what you’re wired to do, in a way that God wires other people to do different things. And that’s the beauty. God wires us all kinds of different ways. So, okay. So you all meet…

Bill Wichterman:
Sorry, I’m just jumping.

Austin Huang:
No, you’re good. Keep going.

David Platt:
You meet in Washington. You get married how long later after?

Bill Wichterman:
So we’ve been married 36 years.

David Platt:
36 years?

Bill Wichterman:
Two years of dating.

David Platt:
Okay.

Dana Wichterman:
And I think the thing that we were both attracted to each other about, besides that we were both sold out to Jesus and wanting to… But we already knew kind of our purpose. We felt that the Lord wanted to use us through our work for justice and to help the oppressed. And for me, it was really a call to help the poor. So I worked with eventually USAID and tried to do poverty alleviation and an issue that’s important to you, sustainability. We were trying to really think through how can we be sustainable in our impact, but also in how we help people steward creation as well. So it was really a stewardship mission.
And then for Bill, stewarding good power, right?

David Platt:
Mm-hmm, yes.

Dana Wichterman:
Power can be used for good in legislation and whatever. And that was, to me, something very attractive that he was working on, that his purpose wasn’t just to get power, but to help people use power well, to steward power well.

David Platt:
Yeah. That’s really good.

Bill Wichterman:
In fact, when I was… I don’t have power now, but I did then, and I remember my office was right off the rotunda of the Capitol and one time driving in and thinking like, “Wow, I’m pretty powerful. I’m doing a lot of big things here, a lot of influence.” And the Holy Spirit was right there saying, “I gave you this power. It’s not for building up your own kingdom, but for doing it… serving the least of these, the voiceless and defenseless. That’s why you have it, steward it well.”

David Platt:
Yes. That’s really good. I mean, you just used the word steward. It’s obviously part of the title of the book you all wrote. Yeah, help us… What does stewardship mean? Because I imagine even people listening right now, stewardship, steward, what does that even mean? Because that’s a pretty fundamental concept to, I would say, Christianity and certainly money, but not just money. So yeah, what comes to y’all? Yeah, how do y’all talk about stewardship?

Dana Wichterman:
I think of the verse, “You were bought with a price. You are not your own,” right? So everything we have, our breath in our lungs is a gift from God. And when we think we own things, that we are the ultimate arbiter of how we can utilize these gifts, our life, we talk about it with our time, our treasure, which our money, our talent, our tithes, which are our relationships, our testimony. We need to be thinking about all these things in terms of they’re a gift from God and we don’t own them, we steward them. And then when the master comes back, he can say either, “Well done, good and faithful servant,” or what we fear is, “I gave you so much and you squandered and look at the people that didn’t hear about the Lord. Look at the people that…” All the sins of omission and commission.

David Platt:
Yes, mm-hmm.

Bill Wichterman:
I’m not a liturgical guy, but I’ve built out my own liturgy, which I’ve kind of built it out over the years and it goes like this. And I say this every morning, “You made me, you saved me, you own me and you love me. There’s nothing that I have that’s not from you. There’s nothing that I have is not a gift. You are good. I will choose not to fear my future because you will be with me and I’ll choose to rejoice in today’s hardships as an opportunity to become more like you.”

Austin Huang:
Wow.

Bill Wichterman:
But that whole sense of like, my life is not my own. It says in Jeremiah, “I know, oh Lord, a man’s life is not his own. It’s not for man to direct his steps.” And I actually don’t see my life as a gift from God. My life can be a gift to others, but my life is a responsibility. Everything I have is a responsibility to be stewarded.

David Platt:
For a guy who’s not very liturgical, I would say that’s a pretty strong liturgy to start your day with. Part of me wants to just like take that and make sure that’s in… Will you link to that somewhere or…

Bill Wichterman:
Yeah, it’s in the book.

David Platt:
That was so good. Well, there you go, that’s good.

Bill Wichterman:
We have it on a blog post too on that.

David Platt:
Uh-huh. Yes, man.

Austin Huang:
Yeah. I think when it comes to stewardship, this has been something that’s been weighing on me too recently. It’s like even in owning a home for the first time, I’m thinking about it. And in the process of owning it and just realizing even in those things, I don’t really own it. Even taking Christianity and our religion and spirituality out of the picture, the government, if I stop paying my property taxes, technically owns my house.
And so I think where do you guys see a mistake in the mindset of young people who are trying to get into this hustle culture where I want to own the nicest house and the nicest car? Where do you find that we fall short of what God’s goal is for our stewardship of these things? What is the missing piece that I feel like young people don’t have?

Dana Wichterman:
Well, let’s say they can fall into two different camps. One is to feel guilt when you’re utilizing your resources for your own good, like a vacation or something good, that sometimes we feel like we have to be poor to please the Lord. And if the Lord asks us to give away everything, then that’s one thing. But we believe that he doesn’t always ask everyone to give away everything, but he does ask you to utilize it for the good of others, His glory, and for our own needs, right?

David Platt:
Mm-hmm.

Dana Wichterman:
So we are supposed to utilize some of our resources for our needs. I think our problem is when our wants become so excessive, and it’s more, yes, look at your needs, but make sure your wants don’t become all of a sudden needs. Right?

David Platt:
Mm-hmm.

Bill Wichterman:
We are in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, and there are so many people who are really wealthy by world standards who think they’re poor. So I think some of it is, like Dana said, telling ourselves, “Oh, well, we have to have this.” We had some friends who were struggling financially and overspending and then they went to Disney World and they said, “Well, we have to go on vacation.” Kind of like, “Well, you have to breathe.” And I think we tell ourselves a lot of things that we don’t really have to do.
And one of the early lessons in life that’s so powerful for us was the eighth wonder of the universe, according to Albert Einstein, compound interest. You only get to compound interest if you live below your means. And people say, “Well, I don’t make a lot of money.” It doesn’t matter. We were making dirt and we spent less than dirt was the point, 10% less than dirt. Well, we did tithing right from the beginning, but then another 10% for savings, just always do it.
And pretty soon you’re sitting on a pile of money because it starts compounding and it gives you liberty and freedom. And this is what Proverbs calls us to do, to be like the ant, not like the grasshopper. So we would say, for young people, keep track of your expenses. It’s easier now to do than it ever has been. Download everything to Quicken or some other budget program from your debit and your credit card, goes like that. It’ll categorize you just quickly, recategorize what you think. Do that for three months and then get a track record of where your money’s going.
It’s hard to live an examined life if you don’t know where your money is going.

Austin Huang:
Mm-hmm.

David Platt:
That’s right.

Bill Wichterman:
And then build from that and say, “All right, Lord, you see all this. Is this pleasing to you?” Because we think our money is a love letter to God.

David Platt:
Wow. That’s really powerful. How long have you all done that?

Bill Wichterman:
From the beginning of our marriage.

David Platt:
Really?

Bill Wichterman:
36 years.

David Platt:
Like tracked your expenses like that?

Dana Wichterman:
Mm-hmm.

David Platt:
And had even this perspective, this is a love letter to you in a sense, whether you would have said it that way or not.

Dana Wichterman:
That came more over time, partly because it really did free us up. We didn’t fight about money, which is one of the things that young couples argue over. And we have some concerns and, “Well, there is some writing, that’s where it went.”

Bill Wichterman:
And we read a book together.

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah.

Bill Wichterman:
We read a Larry Burkett book, which was really important for us, Crown Ministries.

Dana Wichterman:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So just being on the same page, I’d say having the same goals for what your resources are for and talking about it regularly. Because if you want the Lord to use you, then you want to know what you have to give to him back, right?

Bill Wichterman:
Mm-hmm.

David Platt:
Yeah.

Bill Wichterman:
Often in a couple in a marriage, one person will be kind of the money person, the other person will opt out. And we think that’s unwise because this is joint stewardship. So we have a monthly meeting about looking over where did our spending go, what did we do last month so that we’re thinking together about these.

Austin Huang:
It’s good.

David Platt:
I mean, one takeaway is I’m listening to you and you talk about it, there’s a real intentionality to all of that. None of that happens accidentally. That intentionality to, yes, I mean to look at the expenses, to… I think about one other couple we talked with who is a part of radical work around the world. They made it a goal early on in their marriage, actually before they were married, that by the time they were 40, they wanted to give away a certain amount of money and they didn’t have a lot of money. But that just shaped very intentionally all their decision making.
You guys made a very intentional decision, “We’re going to live below our means.” And then, so I know some of your story, along the way, God entrusted more to you than you would have imagined. But that didn’t change the intentionality, right?

Dana Wichterman:
Right. And I think actually before He even gave us more of that wealth, we were really still trying to lean in because I really think it’s not how much you have to give away. It’s the joy even of the little things. It’s when the Lord says, “I’ve given you a little to see what you do with this.” And so we started out early on having a thought that we would like to give away more, but never knowing where we would go.
I remember hearing a story one time, probably 30 years ago, where this family had given away 50% of their income. And I was like, “Wow. Wow.” And so that kind of, “I’d love to get there.” I didn’t think we could ever, ever get there, but that kind of north star was something we were pointing to. And I also wanted to pay off our mortgage by the time I was 50. It’s like, “Let’s get completely out of debt so that we’re even more free to use our resources for the Lord.” Because otherwise, yeah, somebody else owns that.

Austin Huang:
Yes, someone else owns it.

Dana Wichterman:
And so those were some things that we started thinking. And then you came home one day and said, “I heard about this guy.”

Bill Wichterman:
Laterno, who kept giving more and more. Every year he’d increase his tithe by 1%. And when he died, he was giving away 99%. So I said to Dana, “Let’s do that. That would be so fun.” She kind of freaked out.

David Platt:
Yeah. She’s like, “Okay.”

Dana Wichterman:
I freaked out, yeah.

David Platt:
“I mean, 1% at this point, it may be a little hard, but we can work.” Yeah, that’s good.

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah.

David Platt:
But that’s what I love about what you’re saying. It’s the little, like to cultivate that. I think about… I mean, some people are listening to this who are not even married or not looking at homeownership right now, maybe you’re in college. What would you say to the person who’s just starting out like… Yeah, I think about one of my sons who’s about to go to college, Lord willing, what are you saying to the very young adult at the very beginning of an independent financial journey that you would say, “Hey, be intentional in these ways.” And I mean, one of them is, look at what you’re spending, I think. What else would you say to them?

Dana Wichterman:
I’d say look at what income you do have, whatever money you’re managing and have part it be a hospitality budget where you will invite people over or take them out or get a pizza for people. So think of ways you can be generous with both your time and even your little bits of money when you’re around your friends.

David Platt:
That’s good. Mm-hmm.

Dana Wichterman:
And so plan for that, have that be part of your budget at college. And so then you may have to spend a little less on some clothing or et cetera, but you’ve got that budget to think about being generous.

David Platt:
Yeah, that’s really good.

Bill Wichterman:
I mean, the poor on a proportional basis are more generous than the rich. And there’s this great video, I think maybe it’s Generous Giving. But this very poor church in Southeast Asia, and they all take one cup of rice a day.

Dana Wichterman:
A handful of rice.

Bill Wichterman:
And a handful of rice that they bring back to the church. And the church has this amazing feeding program that they’re doing it, but they’re poor people who are doing it. So I think it’s that acknowledgement that all of us, this is not for the wealthy, the wealthy get to be generous. No, especially if you… Few of us are called to give away all of our money. The rich young ruler was, and he didn’t do it. But we are all called to surrender all of our money, and that’s different than giving it all away.
And it does mean though that the Lord has Lordship over what I spend, the candy that I buy or don’t buy. I love chocolate. The whole schmear is His. And that sense from the beginning of like, “I’m going to give account for all of this, and I want the Lord to be pleased.” And in our book, we have 24 stories. The consistent thing we heard from almost everybody was, they’re waiting for the words, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” They want that.

Dana Wichterman:
Well, and the other thing we heard from everyone was a consistent theme of freedom. You actually feel more free. It’s just same with obedience. The more you obey, the more freedom you find, which is an oxymoron in a sense. You’re giving yourself up, but you’re really gaining your true self, like what C.S. Lewis would say. And so people felt more freedom, less anxiety around money, which can be so stressful, more joy and more relationship too. Because when you are thinking about how to utilize your, again, your time and your talent and your treasure for the Lord, your Holy Spirit meter is up to see people’s needs and see people for who they really are and see the image of God in them. Yeah, so it’s more relational.

Bill Wichterman:
We liken it to a kid going into a carnival, one of these pop-up carnivals they have, and getting all these free tickets for rides. That’s what we hear from people who are generous. It is so fun because they get immense joy. These are not dour aesthetics who are flagellating themselves. People are like, “Oh my gosh, this is awesome.”

David Platt:
Yes. certainly-

Austin Huang:
How do we-

David Platt:
Go ahead.

Austin Huang:
How do we differentiate between generous giving, like you guys are saying, and tithing? And do you have any statistics or stories that you could share about this person tithes even though they didn’t have much and God just blessed them generously?

Dana Wichterman:
Well, and you probably know this better than I do, David, tithing is more than 10% in the Old Testament, what, probably 33%.

David Platt:
Yeah, it’s definitely over… Yeah, it’s a little more complicated because it was a system that was supporting a government as well. But, yes, it was much more than 10%.

Austin Huang:
Interesting.

David Platt:
Yes.

Dana Wichterman:
But tithe itself, that means-

David Platt:
Yes, a tenth.

Dana Wichterman:
… a tenth, right? So we feel that being in one of the richest countries of the world, in the history of the world, we should be able to give more than peasants in Judea. But we feel like everyone should at least start with 10%. And if you’re not even doing 10%, just start with 1%, just start. Exercise those generosity muscles to start. But I’d say then above and beyond the tenth, we kind of look out as our offering and as our gifts, and then we just challenge ourselves each year to think, “What can we do to do more?”

Bill Wichterman:
We did tithe on gross, by the way, because we say it’s first fruits. Also, you have to get away from a mentality of God is the divine tax man. Like, “I gave him his 10, and now I get to go do the rest of my money.” No, it’s all his. These are blurry lines. And by the way, if you have debt, it might not be good for you to do more than 10%. You should do 10%, but you should get out of debt. Debt is a burden and it’s something that it’s not strictly prescribed by scripture, but it’s definitely not prescribed. It’s not something that’s good for most of us. And you differentiate with debt. School debt is-

Dana Wichterman:
Productive debt.

Bill Wichterman:
… productive debt. Car debt is… might need a car, but get a cheaper car. It’s not productive debt necessarily, depreciating assets. So think carefully about how you structure that, but really it’s like the whole playing field now, this all belongs to God, in every part of it. There’s not one part where I’m like, “This is mine. I get to do what I want with it.” It’s all His. That doesn’t mean though… I mean, 1 Timothy 6 as Paul writes, “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant, nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.”
Now, does that mean that you can just go buy whatever you want because you’ll enjoy it? No, but God is not a divine kill joy.

David Platt:
Yes. Yes. That’s what I… well, and it makes me think… I just think of so many different texts that are coming to my mind as you all are speaking, like 2 Corinthians 8-9, certainly the impoverished church giving, not because they felt like they had to, because they wanted to. Out of the overflow of their poverty they’re giving with joy, which as you’ve shared, is a reality, yes, among so many of our brothers and sisters around the world who demonstrate that. And then even just the rich young ruler, which you’ve mentioned, it was a call for his good. That was not a call to sacrifice. That was a call to, yes, to surrender, but you’ll have treasure in heaven and you’ll be following me. This is win-win.
So that we would hear God’s call for us to give and to be stewards as a call. And that’s part of what I loved. I don’t remember the line from your liturgy, but this is I trust your good and you desire my good in this. And I just think that mentality is so important just to realize God is not, yes, the divine tax man, the killjoy out to ruin our lives. He really wants our enjoyment. But our enjoyment comes about very different from the way this world says our enjoyment comes about.
What are some other things that come to your mind where we are being, at any age or stage of life, from younger to older, where we’re being conformed to the pattern of this world and we need to be transformed by the renewing our minds when it comes to giving or the use of our money just altogether?

Dana Wichterman:
Well, I think some Christians are so afraid of the word good works, that it means they’re trying to earn their way to heaven, that then they don’t concentrate on what good works did God set aside for them to do before they were even born? And it’s that going back to service, that our life should be about service. And I think we… yeah, we shy away from the idea of good works. And I think that serving others is where we’re going to find our joy, our purpose, our meaning, and it delights God. It delights us.

David Platt:
It’s good. Yes. Service is for our good and others’ good. Our joy and others’ good. Yes.

Dana Wichterman:
And the kingdom building side, that we’re really here to be kingdom builders, not that the… The full kingdom will not come back until Christ comes back, but we are supposed to be rebuilding that wall. Any part of the wall that’s falling down, we’re supposed to be rebuilding. Any part of the city that needs flourishing, we’re supposed to be bringing the flourishing. So we’re supposed to be doing that and using our mental and physical energy and financial energy till the day we die, until their last breath.

David Platt:
Yeah.

Bill Wichterman:
So I think it’s easy for us to become very insular about our money and we share it maybe just with our spouse or maybe with nobody. And that’s not good. It doesn’t mean that you share it with everybody, but you should find some other people in your lives with whom you can be totally open about your finances, your net worth, your salary, your tithe, everything. We have another couple where… The Chapmans. She’s the head of Generous Giving, April Chapman, we open it all up. They see our books, we see their books, we talk about where to give, how to give, how to invest. I mean, all of it.
And there’s incredible freedom and joy which comes from thinking together with others. Now, I think a lot of people are afraid of being judged. “Oh, well, I’ll be judged.” Well, I can’t judge others. I can’t look at somebody driving a portion and say, “Oh, they’re wrong.” That’s between them and God, right?

David Platt:
Mm-hmm.

Bill Wichterman:
Each of us has… and we have different answers to that. The Lord will give liberty in some area for one person and not for another. The key is Lordship, and letting Him be the arbiter of what we do and not do. And by the way, these are not bright lines. You have to work this out with other people. We bought a boat last year before the book came out and Dana said,” There goes our testimony.”

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah, the optics don’t look good on that one.

Bill Wichterman:
But the joke… But actually she didn’t mean that because it really was like we felt complete freedom from the Lord to actually do that thing. But we talked to other people. Before I even talked to Dana about this idea, I got talked with another guy who’s very godly and thoughtful about stewardship and said, “What do you think about this?” And he could ask me those pointed difficult questions. But it was totally… And even now, it’s on the Lord. Lord wants us to sell that boat tomorrow, we’re selling that. This is not our boat. This is his boat. And that’s true of everything we have. It has to be that sense of constant ongoing surrender.

David Platt:
I love that emphasis on community, not trying to figure this out on your own. I feel like that’s counter-cultural. We think, “Yeah, my money, I’m just going to…” Or me and my wife, that’s just for us. As opposed to, yes, for us to truly… I mean, part of discipleship is opening up our whole life to each other. So if we’re going to talk about our thought life and our desires and our… Yeah, every facet of our life, why would that not include money? And why would we not want that? Why we would not want other spirit filled followers of Jesus speaking into our lives.
If we really want to glorify God, we need the body to do that. So even that, I would just say, as I think about Austin, first time homeowner, like who’s… Yeah, just early on in life and then all the way to me, to you guys, for us to have people in our lives that we’re having really good, intentional, open, honest conversations and pursuing Jesus together with our money. That’s really big.

Dana Wichterman:
And being willing to call out the sin that can be associated with money. So early on in our marriage when Bill was kind of the excited one about, “Let’s increase our giving.” And I realized he had the gift of generosity. I do not have the gift of generosity, because I was basically meeting every challenge with fear first. Then, “Okay, I’ll pray about it and then think about it,” and then maybe move out of duty, but not necessarily out of joy.
There was a time when Bill said, “Dana, do you have some greed in your heart over this?” And really hard to hear when your best friend… And I said, “Well, examine…” And I actually did. I had both greed and probably fear of not having enough, that God wasn’t enough. You know, the trust issue.

Austin Huang:
Mm-hmm.

Dana Wichterman:
And that actually made me love him more, that he would be free enough to be able to say, “Examine that and let that go.” So it was still like moving a steamship around when we have certain kind of sins that are kind of more maybe long term, deeply rooted and some fears. But I think over time, God has used that generosity portal with me to lean into that, to give up, to actually rebuke the fears and rebuke the greed.

Bill Wichterman:
If I can answer a question of my wife, cheerfulness. Cheerful giver. You said that you didn’t start cheerful.

Dana Wichterman:
Oh yeah. So when God loves a cheerful giver, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t love uncheerful givers. He loves them just as much too.

David Platt:
That’s good.

Dana Wichterman:
But he knows that we will become cheerful if we give over time. Right?

Austin Huang:
Yeah, that’s good. Yeah.

Dana Wichterman:
And that’s what’s happened to me. I went from duty… Well, actually I went from guilt to duty and obedience, which I think duty and obedience are great. Start somewhere to, “Oh, this is just becoming habit and regular.” It wasn’t radical anymore. It’s like, “This is just the way we should be living.”

David Platt:
Normal, yes.

Dana Wichterman:
And then joy and freedom.

David Platt:
So good.

Dana Wichterman:
So that’s the pattern for me.

David Platt:
And I… Just to make the connection, sorry, I keep interrupting you, Austin.

Austin Huang:
No, you’re good.

David Platt:
But you don’t get to that joy and freedom if it’s guilt that’s driving you. And so to move past that into… Yeah, I love the way you put that. Okay, “It doesn’t feel like this is awesome to do, but I’m going to trust you. You’re telling me to do this.” Obedience. Even that, there’s all kinds of ways that God… we find ourselves stepping into obedience like that, but it will lead to joy. This is John 15, “Abide in me, walk in my commands, and I’m telling you this for your joy.” It’s so good.

Dana Wichterman:
Well, and just the whole thesis of what you’re saying is that Christianity should be radical. We should look different than the world, and yet we look so similar to the world. And so I think the way we manage our money should look different than the world. The way we talk about the way we invest our money should look different. We should not be investing in companies that bring harm to the world just so we can then generate money to then undo that through nonprofits, right?

David Platt:
That’s part of you guys’ journey that at one point you relooked at investments along those lines, right?

Austin Huang:
Can we touch on that?

Dana Wichterman:
Yes.

Austin Huang:
How are some faithful Christians, maybe just unknowing of what their money is actually going towards in terms of companies that are not doing things biblically?

Bill Wichterman:
Guaranteed, if you just are only investing for risk tolerance, you’ll have stuff in your portfolio inside of funds that you’d be like, “Oh my gosh, I totally disagree with that. That goes completely against my faith.” So there would have been a time when, when we first talked about this, Dana was a little concerned like, “Do I have to become a stock analyst now?”

David Platt:
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Bill Wichterman:
There are so many resources now available to Christians to, frankly, in a very easy, pain-free way, to align your money with your faith. And there’s funds, there’s like 250 Christian funds already in the country. There’s Eventide, there’s Sovereigns, there’s all these places where you can get into it that it’s not just for rich people, right? Where you can feel good about what the impact your money’s having.
When you look at a pie chart of all the liquid investible assets in the US, the pie that goes to charitable, less than 1%. Christians only tithe, by the way, about 3%, evangelical Christians, which is too bad. But even if we were doing 10, the biggest part of the pie is the other part. And why would we be unconscious of that? If I told you guys, “Look, strip clubs are doing great this year, you’re going to be able to give more to missions,” would you do it? No. Dana likes to say no ill-gotten gains. We do not want ill-gotten gains.
So there are so many resources available to you. They’re in our book, they’re on our website if you don’t want to buy our book, stewardsnotowners.com. And you can just go and find places and just start that journey to make sure that you are loving the world and that you are, as Eventide, one of these funds, likes to say, is that you’re investing in things that make the world rejoice.

David Platt:
So good. And so where my mind’s going as I’m listening to you talk about that is your finances is a love letter to God. That love letter… Doesn’t feel like a love letter if it’s filled with investments that may get me more money, but are going to things that are very dishonoring to him. Wow, that’s really powerful.

Austin Huang:
I know y’all are passionate about not just taking your own money and stewarding it well, but discipling others into that. How do we practically introduce discipleship with our money management? How do we marry those two ideas in the local church context?

Dana Wichterman:
Well, Crown Financial Ministries has some great programs that people can bring into their churches. Faith-driven Entrepreneur and investor.org also has some really great programs if you want to encourage people in that kind of kingdom-building mindset with both their talent and their work and their finances. And then just talking about it. I think too many pastors feel like their congregationists say, “Whoa, here he is talking about money again.” It’s one of the major… Think of all the deadly sins. There’s like what money and greed is one of them. We should be talking about it a lot more and not be afraid to be talking about it.

David Platt:
Yes. Yeah. Especially when it’s… Yeah, it’s an idol in so many ways. And I mean, you mentioned 1 Timothy 6 earlier, yes, the love of money and how it leads to many pains. If we want to keep each other from many pains, then we’ve got to guard each other from the love of money. And none of us can do that on our own.

Bill Wichterman:
I’m a Bible memorizer and so I memorize a lot of scriptures and including about money. And so when we do our monthly budget meeting, I’ll recite something about 1 Timothy 6, some great verses in there, 2 Corinthians 9 about… Remember this? “Whoever so sparingly will also reap sparingly, who oversaw generously will also reap generously.” There are so many verses about money in scripture, and Bible memorization is good for all of us. It’s not just for kids.

David Platt:
Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Now, so just to make clear, you guys don’t think it’s bad to make money or to have profit. I know you’re working on a book on profit. So I’d love to hear just some of your thoughts, give us some teasers on profit.

Austin Huang:
Preview on that.

David Platt:
Yeah.

Dana Wichterman:
Sure. Well, we think within the creation mandate, when the Lord said, “Multiply, have dominion and multiply.” He didn’t mean just have babies. He meant to take the raw materials of the good earth that he gave us and create good, true and beautiful things, culture, artifacts, cities. And to do that, you need to create profit. When you are planting a seed, you’re not trying to just get a couple seeds back. You want a harvest, right?

David Platt:
Mm-hmm.

Dana Wichterman:
And it’s this idea that there is enough, there’s abundance in the world, minus sin. Sin is what then takes the scarcity and greed and makes things spread out in a wrong way. But God’s intent is for profit and multiplication to be a blessing to everyone. So what we want to do is get back to that idea that yes, the Lord loves addition, meaning he’s going to go and rescue that one sheep that’s wandered away. But we also need to be thinking about how can we multiply in everything we do, when our hands are put to the plow, can we multiply?
And that doesn’t mean just in missions, but that means in business as well, because business is what creates the profit then that is able to give, to be more generous, to provide for families, to create the needs, to provide for the needs that we have.

Bill Wichterman:
And this is not the health and wealth gospel. Some of us are called to be poor and will be poor, and that doesn’t mean that you’ve been therefore faithless, right?

Dana Wichterman:
Right.

Bill Wichterman:
But we also see in scripture before the fall, as Dana said, cultivation was at the core of this. Cultivation is profit. That’s the differential between your input and your output. You wouldn’t do it otherwise, right? I mean, it would just be like a rat’s wheel. It’s you’re actually increasing. And it’s so core to how God intended. It says in Genesis that God planted a garden. Why did not God say, “Shazam, a garden appears”? He planted it and He said He gave seed bearing plants. Why’d He say seed bearing? Why don’t you say plants?
Because inherent in that is, “I planted and now you will have seeds that you will go and plant. You go and do likewise. I work six days and rest, you work six days.” That idea of flourishing, multiplication, making bounty, we see it throughout scripture as… In the Old Testament in particular, he talks about all the ways it’s a sign of bounty. We see it in parable of the talents, we see it in the great wedding feast. God is not ashamed of bounty. In fact, it’s a beautiful thing. And it can be twisted.
We can exploit. We can exploit our employees, we can exploit customers, we can gouge. That’s all wrong. All of God’s good gifts, they can be twisted. But that’s different than saying that prophet in itself is inherently wrong. In fact, it’s something to be celebrated, not be embarrassed about. And it’s not just the means of funding nonprofits. Some of the world’s greatest problems require for-profit businesses because the non-profit money, even if we were all tithing what we should, is never going to be big enough. You can do a lot more. It’s more scalable, and there’s all kinds of things inherent in for-profits like the customer-

Dana Wichterman:
Feedback loop.

Bill Wichterman:
… feedback loop, which is so critical to addressing needs that often non-profits lack.

David Platt:
Wow. Yeah. There’s a lot there. That’s good. I think this is so important. Money is not evil. Profit is not evil. These are good gifts from God that can be stewarded for human flourishing and for God’s glory and for our good. And there are gifts from God that can be misused, abused and loved and put in a position they’re not supposed to be put in and used for a lot of injustice and evil in the world. So that’s the stewardship picture, right?

Dana Wichterman:
Mm-hmm.

David Platt:
We’re at the crux of that. So how are we going to use these things that… steward these things that God’s given us?

Austin Huang:
Yeah.

David Platt:
Man.

Austin Huang:
What are some ways that we can practically, from this conversation, somebody listening can implement some strategies that you guys have found really helpful in stewarding your money well for the glory of God. Some daily rhythms that we can… Because I know we talked about it before the podcast started, but could you guys share those again of just as a young person, or anybody who’s getting into money management and figuring out, “Okay, I don’t actually own this. God has given this to me so I can steward it for his glory.” How do we start?

Dana Wichterman:
Well, I’d say make sure you’re also looking at your other resources, which are your time or let’s say your home, right?

Austin Huang:
Mm-hmm.

Dana Wichterman:
That’s a place where you can utilize that for the Lord. Are you thinking about how to be hospitable? And there’s a difference between entertaining people and being hospitable.

Austin Huang:
Hmm, that’s good.

Dana Wichterman:
And so I think that trying to just make baby steps in all of those different areas, take an inventory once a year. Are we using our car in the right way? Are we using our home in the right way? Could we be blessing more people with the resources that we’ve got? So I think it’s kind of muscle memory. You start off with using your muscles to build those kind of things into your life and then they become normal and they’re part of who you are, right, as you’re growing up.

David Platt:
Yes.

Dana Wichterman:
And the decisions you make become different because you’ve got different categories and boundaries that you’re looking at, and also different purpose. But then just back to make sure you use wise money management, resources. Also think through each year of how does the Lord want you to be heading towards your calling, right?

David Platt:
Yeah.

Dana Wichterman:
Your work is your worship. It can be, and it should be. And so how are you leaning into your calling, even at work, right?

David Platt:
Yes. So good. I want to double click, because both of you have used multiple times the term muscle development, muscle memory. I just think that it really is a helpful analogy to think that nobody goes into a weight room and puts 325 on a bench press rack and just throws it up. Nobody does that. You have to build those muscles. You have to start at the bar. You have to start with a little bit of weight on each side and then a little more, a little more. And the more… and it becomes easier, it becomes like you’re able to do more than you ever could have done, but it’s step by step. So to cultivate these steps is so, so important.
Yeah. So what else would you add, Bill, to just healthy rhythms or daily things? I mean, you mentioned your liturgy, which is so helpful, but anything else that comes to your mind?

Bill Wichterman:
No, I mean, just start. The journey of a thousand miles begins with single steps. So don’t be intimidated by this and think, “Oh my gosh, how do I start?” Start with one. Just start keeping track, buy a program, get a program. Everybody’s got a credit card or a debit card, it seems like. It’s going to take you a little bit of time. It probably takes you about an hour a month to keep track of your expenses. That seems like that’s a pretty reasonable place to start.
It’s hard to be… As I said, how can you live the examined life when you’re not examining where your money’s going? And I think a lot of people just don’t know. They just look at, “What’s my balance.” Well, you might be fooling yourselves.

David Platt:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dana Wichterman:
We played games with ourself too early on where, okay, let’s say end of the year we got a raise. And that first month, whatever was excess, that we’d lived on the past salary the last year. Let’s just give away that first excess from our bonus, or not our bonus, but our salary increase, that month and pretend we were still living on the old salary. And just that’s an experiment. Can we do it? Yeah, we can, because we did it last month.

David Platt:
Yeah, sure.

Dana Wichterman:
And then those kind of games with ourselves would help us think doing something different.

Austin Huang:
It’s pretty cool, yeah.

David Platt:
Which is counter-cultural. Okay, our standard of living doesn’t have to increase with our salary. Yeah, I mean, that’s very different way to live.

Bill Wichterman:
And I’m acquisitive and I like counting and I like… So one thing that I think the Lord gave me this idea of is to setting a lifetime giving goal. And I keep moving the goalposts as I get closer to the first one.

David Platt:
You’re like, “Oh, we didn’t shoot far enough.”

Bill Wichterman:
And it was a crazy goal when we first set it.

David Platt:
So good.

Bill Wichterman:
And it was just like it gives me something other than, it’s easy just to otherwise say, “What’s my net worth goal? When can I retire?” But set some other goals for yourself like, “How much could I give in my lifetime?”

David Platt:
So good. And to use the imagery earlier, you’re like benching 325 now and you’re like, “Wait, this is easy. I can do 400,” or whatever. Yes, I love that picture. So real quick, because I’m just trying to think, there’s so much gold here. Practical things that I’ve heard you guys mention, and obviously a ton of this or all this is in the book, but okay, tracking spending, examining your life, doing that not just on your own, doing that with… certainly with a spouse if you’re married, or regardless, doing it with other followers of Jesus and community, so whether you’re married or single.
So tracking what you’re spending, doing it with others, building an intentional hospitality, how are we… Well, intentional just giving of our resources and giving our time to serve others, believing this is where life is found, looking at any investments we’re making, making sure that’s wise investments that are promoting human flourishing. What else am I missing that just… and daily. I would say your liturgy, daily reminding yourself, “I’m a steward and I serve and worship a good God who’s working for my good in all this.”

Bill Wichterman:
Yeah. So stewardship is not like a mathematical equation or scientific experiment. This is about painting a picture and it’s artistry. And we have been so blessed by hearing about other people’s artistry. And the fact that they would be willing to share with us about their financial journey in concrete ways would give us ideas and we’re like, “Oh, that’s got our name on it.” Other ways be like, “No, no, that’s definitely not for us.” But hearing stories.
So I think the admonition not to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing can be needlessly prohibitive, especially when it also says, and Jesus said, “Let your light shine in the hill.” And we have been blessed. This one guy, Barnhart, what’s his first name?

Dana Wichterman:
Alan.

Bill Wichterman:
Alan Barnhart.

David Platt:
They’re amazing.

Bill Wichterman:
So generous. He’s this huge crane company. For the first three years when he was being approached, because he gives away… He just draws a salary. He gave away his company, which was making billions, but he’s still running it, right?

David Platt:
Mm-hmm.

Bill Wichterman:
It’s just now an income generator for giving and all the things. He resisted letting his story be known because he was like, “That’s going to be proud and showy and boastful.” Thank God he finally relented, because it’s been a blessing for so many other people who get ideas. Dana and I said when we started our book tour, “If people come away saying, ‘The Wichtermans, aren’t they amazing,’ we will have failed.” This is not a story about the Wichtermans or even about the story of the people in our book. This is a story about God and His generosity to us and how can we become like Him in being more generous?

David Platt:
Yeah. So good. It’s beautiful. Yes, yes, yes. And this is what we’re designed to be as the church, spurring one other on toward Jesus as opposed to… We can’t do that if we’re silent in this way. I would love to hear just, and obviously there’s a lot in the book, but a little glimpse into just the joy you guys have experienced in your giving journey. And not just giving, but investing journey as you’ve come alongside other brothers and sisters in Christ even in different parts of the world and co-laboring together and promoting human flourishing with the resources that you’re stewarding. So, yeah, give us just a little bit of a snapshot of that encouragement.

Dana Wichterman:
Well, I would say my joy has been because I see the ability to help change. I’ve been all about trying to help with poverty alleviation for most of my career and to see that entrepreneurs now especially are so creative in those areas and thinking about how to use business for good. Because not only will the business, if it does what it’s supposed to do to help job creation and help people give them dignified jobs so that they can support their families, and then those kids will grow up not being poor, right?

Austin Huang:
Mm-hmm.

David Platt:
Mm-hmm.

Dana Wichterman:
And so you basically are sustaining the impact. That’s what I’ve seen God allow me to do through the use of resources, is help with impact. And that to me is the joy that I experience when I see it in all the different businesses that we are encouraging or investing in.

Austin Huang:
Yeah.

Dana Wichterman:
There’s the greatest joy there. And they’re the creative ones. I am not creative, but I can come along as maybe a patron for them.

Austin Huang:
Yeah, that’s necessary. That’s necessary.

David Platt:
Yes, yes.

Bill Wichterman:
So we can retire and lots of people in our stage of lives, in the 60s, you can retire. And we got ideas from others of like, “No, don’t retire, keep going.” But when you say you can retire, what you’ve concluded is, and you need to do careful analysis, “I have enough money now to live the rest of my days.” I think a lot of people do that too early, but once you have that right, then keep going and just start giving away everything you earn. That we’ve been doing for now for a couple of years, way more fun than we ever expected.
And so if I’m having a hard day at work, I’m aggravated, I’m like, “Yes. But I remember that woman in the Mathari slum of Kenya, whom we went and met, who had a internet cafe of one computer and she wanted to buy a second, and she needed a loan.” And you know how hard it is to get capital in developing the world, extremely difficult. My working today means she gets to get the capital for that computer.

David Platt:
So good.

Bill Wichterman:
Right? And it’s like, is that worth it? That’s life giving. I’ve not given her a computer. What I’m doing is actually would even be a loan, is what she would get, is a computer. And the old thing of give a man a fish, he’ll eat for a day, teach him to fish leave for a lifetime. We like to say, actually rent him a fishing pole or rent him a fishing boat, because then you can get a return on those dollars so that we can do that for others.

David Platt:
So good.

Bill Wichterman:
This is like the goose that lays the golden egg or the-

Dana Wichterman:
Flywheel.

Bill Wichterman:
… the flywheel, that the role of profit and revenue is not something that we have to be sorry about. It’s something that can go so much farther. There’s this one guy, we mentioned him in our book, he’s lighting up… Bringing light to Philippine islands. Lots of islands have no electricity, no light.

Dana Wichterman:
Little solar-powered light.

David Platt:
Okay.

Bill Wichterman:
But he comes into the island and he leases these. People have to pay for them and he makes a profit on that. He has now lit up thousands. There were so many islands in the Philippines, thousands of islands. If this had been a nonprofit, he would have lit up hundreds of islands.

Austin Huang:
That’s a good point. Yeah.

David Platt:
Wow, that’s so good.

Austin Huang:
Yeah. Bill and Dana, thank you guys so much for being here. I mean, I wish this would just keep going on because I’m learning so much from you both. But could one of you guys pray us out and just encouraging anybody listening that this is, wherever you are, whether you’re just starting out with getting your first job or you are on the edge of retirement, would you just pray that we would all serve the Lord in stewardship and not trying to pretend like we’re owners of this?

David Platt:
I would just say this conversation has been full of gold, and this book’s full of gold. Thank you guys for stewarding God’s grace in your life, not just in a way that, yes, is affecting this woman in this slum, lights in the Philippines, but I’m praying and as we pray now, we’ll bear fruit in a lot of our lives for his glory and ways far beyond what any of us can ask or imagine.

Dana Wichterman:
Yeah. Thank you to both of you.

David Platt:
Can one of you all pray us out?

Dana Wichterman:
I will. Sure.

David Platt:
It’s great.

Austin Huang:
Awesome.

Dana Wichterman:
Lord God, thank you so much that you invite us into your kingdom building, that you want us and you’ve made us for such a time as this. Lord, that you shower so many blessing on us. And, Lord, may we also just steward these right, that we would be found faithful, God. Teach us how to do it. This life is confusing. There’s so many signals from the world to live otherwise.
Please, Lord, help us to know how to surrender each day and know that we can trust you. You are a good God, you have our good in mind and, Lord, that you want to bring flourishing to this world through us. So may we be your hands and feet and may we think rightly about these things and then do rightly, Lord. By your help and by your grace, in your name, we pray. Amen.

David Platt:
Amen.

Austin Huang:
Thanks so much for joining us today on Everyday Radical. If this episode stirs your heart for Christ and his mission, our hope is that you would check out some of our previous episodes as well. And do not forget to subscribe so you don’t miss out on what’s ahead. Let’s keep making Jesus known everywhere together. See you next time.